Looking for a new engine

[integraslut78]

Originally posted by adnoh+Jul 15 2005, 08:53 AM-->

sohcslammer

@Jul 14 2005, 10:58 PM
Do not get a b16. Total waste of money for a swap imo... Great if you bought a 99-00 si like me, poor if you are going through the hassle of putting one where there was not one before.

The b16 is a torqueless wonder and you will most likely get beat up on by moded d series. Take it from someone that has owned the D series, the H series, the GSR, B16, LS, and now a LS/vtec. I can honestly say that the B16 is a bastard of a motor. The only worthwhile swap IMO is into a sub 2000 pound CRX. And even then you are just barely chirping 2nd.

Save up for the GSR or just turbo the d series. A b16 swap is a waste of money IMO....


**Puts on flame suit and stands back** :hide:

[post=526437]Quoted post[/post]​

***Puts on his flame gauntlet with spiked knuckles***

What the fuck are you talking about????!!!!! A b16 is a bastard motor? Worthless? Waste of money? You have to be fucking kidding me. My self too being the owner of a GSR hatch (stolen), then now a SiRII Hatch, in fact, in stock form, THERE IS NO FUCKING DIFFERENCE!!! At all. In terms of aftermarket support and power potential, they are the SAME. Torque?? Start building the B16 block and see that problem dissapear. And if you're like me and are fond of the twisties, torque means shit all anyways, you're never really much out of VTEC.

There is no limit to either engine. But there are price diffrences. The B16A was available for a longer period of time both here and overseas, therefore the are more of them laying around, hence the price diffrence. There are way less GSR motors laying around.

Wether you have a GSR, SiR, Type R, the fact is you have a B-Series DOHC VTEC engine. In stock form, you are paying more money for the engine's availability, not power, and when it comes to power potential, there is no clear winner....all DOHC VTEC engines are one in the same.

To the poster, buy whatever B-Series is in your budget.

[post=526634]Quoted post[/post]​

Are you implying that a B16 SiRII and a GSR are virtually the same?
Yeah well they both have DOHC and they both have VTEC but that's the only thing they have in common. The GSR puts the hp to the wheel what the B16 has to the crank. Is this what you were implying or did I read it wrong? If this was what you were implying you must be HIGH.

 

[MikeBergy]

Get a b16, then turbo it if you are looking for lots of power that is basically good for doing lots burnouts and getting tickets. I'd get an LS motor to start with as acheap swap.you can sometimes score one for less than 300 including the tranny like I did. That is dirt cheap, and a good amount of power increase if you are switching out an old sohc. Oh yeah, torque isn't useless, it's good for daily driving. And going fast.

 

[adnoh]

Originally posted by integraslut78+Jul 15 2005, 11:29 AM-->

Originally posted by adnoh@Jul 15 2005, 08:53 AM
sohcslammer

@Jul 14 2005, 10:58 PM
Do not get a b16. Total waste of money for a swap imo... Great if you bought a 99-00 si like me, poor if you are going through the hassle of putting one where there was not one before.

The b16 is a torqueless wonder and you will most likely get beat up on by moded d series. Take it from someone that has owned the D series, the H series, the GSR, B16, LS,  and now a LS/vtec. I can honestly say that the B16 is a bastard of a motor. The only worthwhile swap IMO is into a sub 2000 pound CRX. And even then you are just barely chirping 2nd.

Save up for the GSR or just turbo the d series. A b16 swap is a waste of money IMO....


**Puts on flame suit and stands back**  :hide:

[post=526437]Quoted post[/post]​

***Puts on his flame gauntlet with spiked knuckles***

What the fuck are you talking about????!!!!! A b16 is a bastard motor? Worthless? Waste of money? You have to be fucking kidding me. My self too being the owner of a GSR hatch (stolen), then now a SiRII Hatch, in fact, in stock form, THERE IS NO FUCKING DIFFERENCE!!! At all. In terms of aftermarket support and power potential, they are the SAME. Torque?? Start building the B16 block and see that problem dissapear. And if you're like me and are fond of the twisties, torque means shit all anyways, you're never really much out of VTEC.

There is no limit to either engine. But there are price diffrences. The B16A was available for a longer period of time both here and overseas, therefore the are more of them laying around, hence the price diffrence. There are way less GSR motors laying around.

Wether you have a GSR, SiR, Type R, the fact is you have a B-Series DOHC VTEC engine. In stock form, you are paying more money for the engine's availability, not power, and when it comes to power potential, there is no clear winner....all DOHC VTEC engines are one in the same.

To the poster, buy whatever B-Series is in your budget.

[post=526634]Quoted post[/post]​

Are you implying that a B16 SiRII and a GSR are virtually the same?
Yeah well they both have DOHC and they both have VTEC but that's the only thing they have in common. The GSR puts the hp to the wheel what the B16 has to the crank. Is this what you were implying or did I read it wrong? If this was what you were implying you must be HIGH.

[post=526659]Quoted post[/post]​

B16A SiRII
Disp. 1595cc
HP 170@7600
TQ 116@7000
Comp 10.4:1

B18C1 GSR
Disp. 1797
HP 170@7600
TQ 128@6200
Comp 10.0:1

Both are I4 engines. They loose the same amount of HP when reading to the wheels. The diffrence is 12lbs of TQ. The B16A is a tad lighter. In a hatch, since I've honestly owned both, there was absolutely no diffrence. Well wait, the GSR had a little more gusto while driving around town. After 3K, same shit except the SiR kept going to 8200. I'm not trying to argue but it's not speculation, it's fact dude. Mechanically they are similar, but power, not much diffrent in stock form.

 

[adnoh]

Originally posted by MikeBergy@Jul 15 2005, 11:31 AM
Oh yeah, torque isn't useless, it's good for daily driving. And going fast.

[post=526665]Quoted post[/post]​

This we all know, but torque is a much more significant force off the line. After 6K or so, it's not doing me much good

 

[sohcslammer]

Originally posted by Blanco@Jul 15 2005, 04:23 PM
Bah.  You can have a completely rebuilt and turbo'd D16Z6, putting down around 200whp, for the price a B-Series swap alone.

[post=526919]Quoted post[/post]​

I would do this 10 times over if I still had single cam. Swaps are over-rated.


BTW - PAGE 2 PWN3d!!!!!

 

[sohcslammer]

Originally posted by adnoh@Jul 15 2005, 10:53 AM

***Puts on his flame gauntlet with spiked knuckles***

I was expecting much worse.....


Here's the deal... The B16 makes 116 lb feet at 8000 rpms where the GSR motor makes that much around 5k. The GSR makes more power all over the RPM range, but you are just looking at peak power. Are you trying to sell a car or do actually believe that peak power matters?

You can't honestly believe that the B16 is even comparable to a GSR motor. And when I say B16 I am talking about the USDM B16 which is rated at 160 hp. If you are talking about SIRIIs then the price is much higher and I would DEFINETLY go with the GSR. The GSR motor is going to out pull a B16 every time....

Lets say for the sake of argument that 2 identical cars, with identical trannys and wheel height get in a race. Now let's pretend that one has a B16 SirII and one has a GSR. Let's also pretend that at the end of first gear the cars are neck and neck. (which we know is false because the GSR = more torque and torque is what gets you going faster) Car A has the B16 and car B has the GSR. Now at the end of first gear when the cars are neck and neck, they shift into second. Now both cars are at 6000 rpms. But at 6000 rpms Car B is making close to it's peak power, but Car A is far from it, you are at least 10 horsepower back on the GSR, at 6000 rpms. So which car pulls ahead in second gear? There just isn't any comparison and a GSR motor is infinetely better in my opinion.

I've said it before but I'll say it one more time -

Horsepower sells cars. Torque wins races.

(Sorry about the lame ass explanation but it's hot and I'm tired and my brain isn't working quite right....)

 

[adnoh]

(Sorry about the lame ass explanation but it's hot and I'm tired and my brain isn't working quite right....)

[post=527116]Quoted post[/post]​

No worries dude...it's mad hot over here too.

But just to correct you on one thing......the B16A makes its peak TQ at 7k, not 8K. Big diff.

moving along.....

I hear what your saying, but you too have owned both engines, and I cant believe what your saying. Honestly, I have never been a big fan of the GSR motor. Shitty IM and not so great gear ratios, not to mention the hefty price. It is a "hyped" engine just like the type R. There aren't many around, thats why. When my GSR motor got robbed I did a lot of thinking and opted for the SiRII motor instead and saved $1000. And for the record, the USDM B16A, to me, is a de-tuned version of the real JDM version......not what I'd be basing my comparison on. But anyways, I still cannot, to this day, feel a diffrence in the two. The GSR has a little more daily driven TQ, but as I said, after 3K, they pulled just the same. I've been able to pull 13.9xx on both engines in the 1/4 (dont ask me for slips, those are long gone). To each his own, but for me, the SiRII was cheaper, lighter, and had closer gear ratios. I'm not saying it's faster by any means, just comparible. It just worked for me. And seriously, both you and I know, whatever engine you choose, whether it be a GSR or an SiR, coming from a stock D-series, the B-series hatches HAUL ASS. I was seriously fucking scared for my life the first time I was driven in one. Whatever the poster chooses, he'll be happy as a pig in shit....No doubt.

 

[adnoh]

Horsepower sells cars. Torque wins races.

[post=527116]Quoted post[/post]​

Well, the actual explanation is:

Horse power is how much power an engine makes.

Torque is how fast it can make it.

In this case the two engines make HP at the same RPM, The GSR makes it's power 800 RPM's sooner.

 

[xj0hnx]

A GSR with a B16A tranny will be more of a threat than a straight GSR. I am a fan of GSR's after you get rid of that IM, and through some CTR cams in. Other than that, I too will defend my B16A. That little bastard is mean...and probably puts down more than a stock GSR (or pretty damn close).

Personally, I think the motors are priced right, and comparibly.
ITR 4500
GSR 3200
B16A 2200
You figure to get to the next level of motor, it would cost about the same as buying that one to begin with. For example a B16A with cams and all bolt ons, will push close to a GSRs power, but cost around 3200 in the end. A GSR with cams and an IM, maybe some light head work is going ot be in the low 4000 range.

 

[jimboburgess]

this is another reason why the LS engine is such a good starting out point.
only 142hp but 127 ft/lbs. Excellent starting point and cheap. I can feel the power at 4000 start to pull the car, i could imagine it with Vtec even more top end oomph.

 

[adnoh]

Originally posted by 92b16vx@Jul 16 2005, 02:37 PM
A GSR with a B16A tranny will be more of a threat than a straight GSR. I am a fan of GSR's after you get rid of that IM, and through some CTR cams in. Other than that, I too will defend my B16A. That little bastard is mean...and probably puts down more than a stock GSR (or pretty damn close).

[post=527272]Quoted post[/post]​

 

[vtecsir1]

i would like to clear something up from the earlier post


jdm b16 sir 2 had 170 ps which is not hp, it equals closer to 168 hp which is really lower because of a lower octane rating in the us.

b18c1 is 170 hp period
b18c sir-g is 180 ps same applies as above for this motor.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by vtecsir1@Jul 16 2005, 10:24 PM
i would like to clear something up from the earlier post


jdm b16 sir 2 had 170 ps which is not hp, it equals closer to 168 hp which is really lower because of a lower octane rating in the us.

b18c1 is 170 hp period
b18c sir-g is 180 ps same applies as above for this motor.

[post=527303]Quoted post[/post]​

1hp is 1.013PS, but the difference really is petty since 2-3hp difference can be a hot vs a cold day

 

[jimboburgess]

is this guy even reading this thread anymore? It seems to me he is looking at a budget, since what he looked at was around $950. This has just turned into a flame fest with petty scaubbleling over minute details.

IMO, from what everyone says, the only noteworthy advantage the GSR has over the B16A is 2/10ths of a liter. Other than that both have interchangable parts, and differences in power that aren't able to be felt. With minimal mods (CTR pistons or some how raising the compression) the HP difference is negated, but torque is still lacking.

Take the gsr over the B16A but both are great choices. Why not stick an H22 in there, it is head and shoulders above either and less costly. Downside? bad weight balance, Solution? you could add some balast to the back with the extra power it would be a great help and little detriment.

Cheapest route to an easy problem free swap? Find an integra that has been in an accident, buy it, strip it(engine, brakes, seats?) if you do it yourself, you get a great car for whatever the teggy cost you. If you are on a budget i will continue to stress the LS swap. I went from a 70hp CX to the LS and the difference of Night and Day. My freind had a DX w/ i/h/e and did the same swap and was equally impressed by how great of a difference there was. ALthough he had about 100lbs of body work on his car in the form of a custom molded widebody kit.

 

[E_SolSi]

Originally posted by vtecsir1@Jul 16 2005, 05:24 PM
jdm b16 sir 2 had 170 ps which is not hp, it equals closer to 168 hp which is really lower because of a lower octane rating in the us.

[post=527303]Quoted post[/post]​

In Europe 98-octane gasoline is common and in Japan even 100-octane is readily available at the pumps, but this octane nomenclature is misleading to Americans as foreign octane ratings are derived entirely differently from our own... So, like every other measurement system it seems that everyone else uses a different scale than we do, but unlike most other instances where we have had the good sense to create different units of measure in this case we all use the same name...
Japan and Europe use a system called RON or Research Octane Number to determine the octane rating of their gasoline, while stateside we use a system called AKI or Anti-Knock Index to determine gasoline's octane rating... Interestingly, to further complicate things it would seem that our own AKI system is actually derived from the average of the RON system and another more complicated system referred to as MON or Motor Octane Number... So, to recap our methodologies for measuring gasoline's octane rating are different, but share some common elements...
So, with the commonality of RON in mind a good rule of thumb is as follows, multiply the foreign RON Octane rating by 0.95 and you will have the US AKI equivalent.

( RON Octane Rating x 0.95 = AKI Octane Rating )
98 RON Octane x 0.95 = 93.1 AKI Octane (US measure)
100 RON Octane x 0.95 = 95 AKI Octane (US measure)

So, as you can see the 93 or 94 octane fuel we are all paying an arm and a leg for is actually quite comparable to the higher octane fuels found in Europe and Japan. The people whom have to worry about low octane rating are our friends out west in places like California that are subjected to substandard 91 octane.
91 AKI Octane (US measure) = 95.5 RON Octane

 

[asmallsol]

Originally posted by integraslut78@Jul 15 2005, 12:29 PM

Are you implying that a B16 SiRII and a GSR are virtually the same?
Yeah well they both have DOHC and they both have VTEC but that's the only thing they have in common. The GSR puts the hp to the wheel what the B16 has to the crank. Is this what you were implying or did I read it wrong? If this was what you were implying you must be HIGH.

[post=526659]Quoted post[/post]​

I don't even know how to respond to this. They ARE almost identical engines. THe block, the head, the transmission were all derived from the same thing. Yes there are slight veriations, but they are basicly the SAME thing, minus the GSR has slightly longer stroke giving it .2 extra leaders.

b16a2/a3 (usdm engines) turn 160hp at the crank where the b18c1 (again, the USDM engine) puts 170hp.

The b16 worthless? I am going to say no on this one cheif. Throw a turbo on the engine and its fast as hell. The last turbo honda that I drove was a stock block and tranny b16a with a nice turbo and manifold (don't know any specs on the turbo) and the thing was so fast it was almost scary to drive. On the highway, it was great. In 5th, I could just lightly press the gas down and I would quickly be at 90.

Yes, displace is great, but for 1000 extra, its not worth it IMO. I even have a GSR hatch and I am saying this.

Hell, IMO I would rather build up a NA b18b or a b20 then throw a stock GSR engine in the car. It would cost you the same and the built up b18b will KILL it.

Crower 404 cams w/crower valve trane
b16 pistons
b16 tranny= shit load of trq and a very healthy powerband.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by E_SolSi+Jul 17 2005, 05:48 AM-->

vtecsir1

@Jul 16 2005, 05:24 PM
jdm b16 sir 2 had 170 ps which is not hp, it equals closer to 168 hp which is really lower because of a lower octane rating in the us.

[post=527303]Quoted post[/post]​

( RON Octane Rating x 0.95 = AKI Octane Rating )
98 RON Octane x 0.95 = 93.1 AKI Octane (US measure)
100 RON Octane x 0.95 = 95 AKI Octane (US measure)

So, as you can see the 93 or 94 octane fuel we are all paying an arm and a leg for is actually quite comparable to the higher octane fuels found in Europe and Japan. The people whom have to worry about low octane rating are our friends out west in places like California that are subjected to substandard 91 octane.
91 AKI Octane (US measure) = 95.5 RON Octane

[post=527418]Quoted post[/post]​

Yip, I use 95 RON out here.

 

[sohcslammer]

Originally posted by Blanco@Jul 17 2005, 06:16 AM
I still say a turbo'd D16Z6 is the best bet for a budget minded tuner.

[post=527459]Quoted post[/post]​

still.

 

[reikoshea]

I like the B16 just for the abundance of parts. Im not saying that d-series performance parts dont exist, but you can find b series EVERYWHERE.

 

[TWISTEDIMAGE]

yea build a d series and then boost it and it will put down 200 hp

wtf is wrong with you people yea lets wast money, buy a b series and have almost the same hp and have endless tuning capablity.

d series+boost= tuned and slow
b series= tuning plat form.