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ls/vtec werd

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by KWJaY, Sep 10, 2003.

  1. KWJaY

    KWJaY Member

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    yeah i know, this is prolly the 30th ls/vtec topic in like the past week, anyways, when i do the whole ls/vtec thing, i'll prolly have around 4k for the whole porject. I was wondering if there is anywhere were i can get a built vtec head, if not i'll prolly just buy a cheap ported/polished one then ask some of the ls/vtec guru's again for part idea's. Im also getting a new tranny, i don't know if i should go with a b16 tranny /w aftermarket LSD or a Typre- R tranny, anyone know any places that sell trannys? Oh also im not entirly sure what else i need after i have the head as far as parts that need to be replaced. Thx for any help, i know Milan and lsvtec will prolly respond because they seem to be pro-frankenstien :D
     
  2. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    I'm "pro-frankenstein", and I don't think that $4k is enough to get you that built head, LSD transmission, and still have enough cash leftover to finish your conversion... especially if you don't have the LS block in your car to begin with.

    You might want to set some lower goals with that budget.
     
  3. SleEPeR_CRX

    SleEPeR_CRX Senior Member

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    4000 is enough to get a LS/Turbo with the basic mods. dont build an LS/Vtec unless u can afford to do it right the 1st time

    and let the record show i am Anti Ls/Vtec
     
  4. lsvtec

    lsvtec GNU/Linux Evangelist

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    Add clueless to that list. You do not offer any reason why the LSVTEC is bad, just that one idiot built a bad engine so you don't like it.

    I motion we strike the above comment from the record as it has no backing information.
     
  5. KWJaY

    KWJaY Member

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    Im doing an LS/vtec build in a 95 integra LS, im not swapping a whole engine into a civic, so i think 4k should be just fine, 1000 on tranny, 6-700 on a PnP b16a head, then about 2-3k for building and misc parts that will be needed. I'm thinking of pretty much going with all Skunk2 stuff but idunno if it would be better to mix and match parts, I don't know how much of a diffrence there is between Toda B spec cams and Skunk2 Stage II etc.
     
  6. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    God... will you quit already? Stop spewing this misinformation in every single LS/VTEC thread you see just because one of your friends was a dumbass and didn't build his engine right.

    An LS/turbo setup will cost you just about the same, if not more than an LS/VTEC setup. Going turbo isn't exactly the cheapest thing, and there are just as many things to go wrong (if not more) as with a VTEC conversion. Maybe going with a junk turbo setup is cheaper, but then you're not exactly doing a turbo buildup the right way either, are you? Hmm... junkyard LS/VTEC can be pulled off for $500 too, so how can you compare?

    Just quit. Now. Please. NOW.

    ------

    KWJaY- if you're building into a 95 Integra, you should be just fine with $4000- if you're careful about where you source the parts, and do all the labor yourself. Just keep in mind that there are always little things that pop up when you're doing engine work, so don't budget out all your $4000 for parts.

    As for mixing/matching parts, you might want to keep your valvetrain and cams from the same manufacturer. You don't need to, but it's sometimes a good idea, especially if you're using high lift cams. The cam designer might have a specific spring/retainer set for the cams that will still control your valves without excessive camshaft wear. For everything else, mix/match away!
     
  7. JDMilan

    JDMilan Senior Member

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    First some basics:

    Either the Ls block or the CRV block can be found at a junkyard. Call around and look. They arent that hard to find. Especially the ls blocks. Dime a dozen. Look to pay about 250-300 for the ls block.or about 800-1000 for the CRV block. If you are going to resleeve the ls block then obviously it doesnt pay to buy the crv block. Save some money and buy me something.

    The benefit of the CRV block over the LS block is the size. The cranks are IDENTICAL but the b20 (crv) has an 84 mm bore as opposed to a 81 mm bore that the ls block has. One issue i see people say alot is "Does it matter the mileage of my motor". Not really no. You are going to rip it apart, replace everything and put it back together anyway. The only thing that will really matter in this issue is the condition of the cylinder walls. Even if in bad shape however they can be bored then honed and then are ready to go. CRV block are kinda tricky though. JE only makes 84mm and 85mm pistons. This means unless the block is practically brand new (like under 15k on it) you will have to bore it 40 thousandths (spelling?) over if you intend on using these products. Ls blocks are basically always ok, unless ya spun a bearing in which case dont even bother with the thing. A bore and a Hone will fix most problems.

    The advantage of the LS block is that there is a vast array of Honda pistons you can use. CTR, JDM ITR and USDM ITR all make good canidates. These are cheap (330 or so with rings, most of the time they are cheaper) and since honda is so damn cool.....they make oversized. So get this one: buy a used ls block at the junkyard. Bore it over and then use CTR pistons along with the stock ls everything else and ya done! Thanks honda!

    But.....CRV blocks are a lil different and here is why they more money. Honda never intended on making the b20 a high performance motor. So why make pistons that are the same bore? They dont really. Just stock B20 pistons. which yield a stupid low CR. And also the valve reliefs on the stock CRV pistons are not big enough to accept the valves of VTEC heads. So if using larger cams you cant really play with the cam gears too much. or else problems will occur. So what do you do? Buy aftermarket right?!? Ok so ya just spent between 450-500 on pistons...you cant use those things on stock rods! So ya buy aftermarket again! another 350 or so. So right away thats 800-900 dollars more then the
    Ls block...But you WILL HAVE MORE POWER!

    Now as for parts you will need with either motor. These are NEEDS not WANTS. They are a part of either build and will not be listed in the motors simply because we will assume you will get them.
    1. New rod and main bearings. Please dont ask what kind ya need. they are different for every motor.
    2. New head gasket, Oil pan gasket, rear main seal, Oil return gasket, oil filter
    3. Thrust washers
    4. fittings for running the external oil line.
    5. You must have the entire rotating assembly balanced!!!!!!!
    6. New VTEC Water pump.
    7. New VTEC oil pump.
    8. New VTEC Timing belt.
    9. BE SURE TO MATCH THE WATER PUMP AND TIMING BELT. VTEC=VTEC and Non-vtec=Non-vtec. otherwise your car will
    die a very painfull death.!
    10. We both prefer ARP bolts to stock. Stock is usable but ARP is cheap insurance.

    We also assume that you have bolt-ons already. Intake, Header with a 2.5 inch collector and a good exaust.
    If you dont have these.....get them.....NOW!


    Like said above. We will assume that all the motors being built will use this stuff...hence: we will not list these parts in the total build up parts list.


    BLOCK SET-UP

    LSVTEC block MILD: (250)
    CTR/TYPE-R pistons (330)
    LS rods


    LSVTEC block MEDIUM: (250)
    JE 11.5 pistons (Ross also make pistons for this application) (485)
    EAGLE rods (350)


    LSVTEC bock WILD: (250)
    Resleeve with Golden Eagle Sleeves 85 MM bore (1000)
    JE 12.5/13.0 pistons (Ross also will do) (485)
    CROWER connecting rods (500)


    B20VTEC block MILD: (900)
    Stock B20 pistons
    Stock rods


    B20VTEC block MEDUIM: (900)
    JE 11.5 or 12.5 pistons (485)
    EAGLE rods (350)


    B20VTEC block WILD: (900)
    GOLDEN EAGLE 86MM SLEEVES (1000)
    Custom 12.5/13.0 Pistons (500)
    95 mm Crank (800???)
    Deck Plate (machine shop cost)


    HEAD PACKAGES WITH LSVTECS/B20VTECS

    MILD:
    Type-R head with skunk2 stage 1 cams, skunk2 cam gears.
    ($800-$1200 full head, $600 for cams, 200 for gears)

    SI head with skunk2 stage 1 cams OR JUN type 2, Type-R Valve Train, Skunk2 cam gears OR JUN cam gears, Type-r Inner and Outer springs w/ retainers .
    ($400-$600 for head, $600 skunk2 cams / $800 for JUN type 2, $200 for Skunk2 cam gears / JUN cam gears?, Type-R valve train $350)

    GSR head: Similar as SI head

    MEDIUM:
    Type-R head with skunk2 stage 2 OR JUN type 3, Skunk2 valve train OR Port flow INNER-OUTER valve springs TI Titanium Retainers OR JUN valve train, Skunk2 valves, Skunk2 cam gears OR JUN cam gears .
    ($800-$1200 full head, $650 for Skunk2 cams / $850 for JUN 3 cams, $440 skunk2 valve train / $380 JUN valve train, $200 Skunk2 cam gears / JUN cam gears?

    SI Head: ($400-$600 for the head) Similar to Type-R setup

    GSR Head: ($400-$600 for the head) Similar to Type-R setup


    WILD:
    GSR head with TODA SPEC C cams, TODA cam gears, TODA springs, titanium retainers, TODA Individual throttle body / or TWM I.T.B.
    ($400-$600 for the head, $1900 for TODA Head package includes SPEC C cams-cam gears-valve train, $2500 for TODA Individual Throttle Body, $2000 for TWM Individual Throttle Body

    SI head: Similar to GSR setup

    TYPE-R head: Similar to GSR setup (add an extra 300-500 bucks for the head if purchased seperatly)


    Tranny Info for Frankenstein motors

    For the most part any GSR or Type R tranny is good for these motor's. The B16 tranny is not as strong as these. The differential is actually physically smaller then on these trannies. This could be due to the smaller motor, cost cutting....whatever the case may be. I dont trust it.
    I broke mine on street tires and have seen many others do the same. Yes it will work. Yes it will bolt up...But i wouldnt use it.....Unless you have too. That tranny with a Quaife lsd would be good. The gearing in that and the ITR are the same so it would be ok. for performance.
    But still why bother.......just get a 1.8 tranny!


    DECENT setup for the street: (500-600)
    Any GSR or Type R tranny

    NICE setup for street: (1700)
    GSR tranny
    Quaife LSD
    JDM Final Drive
    or...
    JDM ITR Tranny with 4.785 FD

    SWEET setup for the street: (2600)
    Type R tranny
    Quaife LSD
    JDM Final drive

    HOLY GOD setup for the street: (3200)
    Type R tranny
    Quaife LSD
    ATS 4.929 Final Drive
    Gsr 5th gear

    For an all out track car i would would like this setup most: (4000 +)
    Type R tranny
    Quaife 5.1 Final Drive
    Spool differential
    Custom Kaaz Gearing


    ECU Setups for Frank motors

    Many people think you need Hondata or a standalone system to go fast. YOU DONT. Plenty of people have gone VERY VERY fast with a regular chipped ecu. Here is an idea of some programs you can get to help you tune your new beast. We will assume the car is 92-00 so we will base all the
    ECU's on a P-28 basis.


    GREAT setup for the street: (550)
    P28 rechipped with a JDM B16 proggy with a higher rev limit.
    VAFC
    Many people dount this setup because it is a "stock" program. DONT. This is a great setup, and when
    paired with the VAFC provides very good tunability and since it is a stock program it is much less prone to detonation for timing reasons. There are a few people going very fast with this setup.....some are even on this message forum. Our pro car at www.b20vtec.com is another.

    ANOTHER setup for the street: (500)
    P28 with hondata
    Whether you consider it standalone or not, when its tuned it works well. For a street driven honda who demands a good idle and good power this is the ticket. Just dont foprget to include 500 or so for tuning and the install of the chip.

    BEST SETUP FOR ANYTHING: (2050 with everything)
    accell dfi 7.0 or speedpro are both great products (tuner depending) but for a street NA honda they really arent needed unless you have ITB's (then you prolly arent reading this anyways).


    Fuel setups for Frank Motors

    Fuel systems are actually pretty easy with these motors. They arent that hard to figure out.

    BASIC setup for Ls/Vtec: (550)
    RC 270 cc injectors
    Holley 190 fuel pump
    adjustable FPR with gauge

    BIG setup for Ls/Vtec: (550-600)
    RC 310 cc injectors
    Holley 255 pump
    adjustable FPR with gauge

    BASIC setup for CRVTEC: (550-600)
    RC 310 cc injectors
    Holley 255 pump
    adjustable FPR with gauge

    BIG setup for CRVTEC: (600)
    RC 370 cc injectors
    Holley 255 pump
    adjustable FPR

    If doing ITB then the kit will come with an adjustable FPR and 440 cc Injectors.



    as far as mathematics comes into play,,,I say you do the math, to do it right with the proper components once it's going to exceed your budget unless your getting shit for free. That is considering tuning need, labor, etc..


    I am pro lsVTEC, but do it properly...
     
  8. KWJaY

    KWJaY Member

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    yeah my ultimate goal for this car would be high to mid 13's if luckey, with back seats/spare/jack stripped after i know how to drive my car pretty well, after all the major stuff i will prolly save up again for a hondata and some lighter seats, maybe a cf hood if it is a lot lighter than the stock one.
     
  9. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    JDMilan- you could've linked to the text instead of pasting it all in...

    KWJay- you can probably break 13s easy if you're able to up your compression and play with the head some, and especially if you're able to change out your transmission.
     
  10. 2 litre EG

    2 litre EG Senior Member

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    <//~~~ PRO LS/VTEC HERE [but would rather have a GSR built :p ]
    although i do have a GSR block and Type r head sitting in my garage collecting dust til i get some cash haha


    anyways, everything waas pretty much covered, i sware i need to get on here earlier so i can answer a few questions like i did before haha...

    as for getting a built head and tranny for about 4000... hmmmm? depending on how wild your going with the head [cams, valves, valve guides etc etc]... for example a head from Alaniz can cost up to 5000 cause of titanium valves with berylium valve guides... but like i said it all depends on EXACTLY what you want to do...

    tranny, you should be able to pick up a good type-r tranny for about 900... but from what erick @ ericks racing has told me it aint all that great... he has multiple type r trannys go on him as soon as a motor hits about 200+ whp.... i personally have not seen that happen, but from his word, i trust

    good luck with your build and let us know how everything goes

    B)
     
  11. KWJaY

    KWJaY Member

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    yeah thanks for all of the help, im sure ill be talkin to you all again when im actually gunna buy the stuff, it will prolly be a few months, for me to save up the cash, with my new job i can easily save about 1000 a month, so id rather save up a pretty big wad of money and do a whole bunch of stuff rather then buying the stuff in parts, im only 17 so ill wait till i do get the cash then gotta explain to my parents how Ohh my engine is done and i need all this new stuff for reliability and there is no point in buying a new engine when all i need is a new head, etc. :D
     
  12. JDMilan

    JDMilan Senior Member

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    I would have but that was a copy paste from a word document I have on my desktop....
     
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