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N2O block build

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by Abrasintegra, Feb 20, 2006.

  1. Abrasintegra

    Abrasintegra Junior Member

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    Alright I got my block disassembled now it's time for my build. I'm a nitrous noob, but I want to run as big of shot as I can safely. I'll be doing the block fill that's described on the main page to a b18b block, I've already got my pistons they're ITR's from honda, I guess my question is what would be my best choice for rings that will withstand a healthy shot every now and again. I was going to run just oem honda rings but that was before I bought my NX kit. Thanks.
     
  2. nismogod

    nismogod Senior Member

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    its all in the tuning. the rings dont matter all that much. whatever you make for crank hp, add 50% for nitrous. thats with simple tuning. eventually, if you are a mad scientist, you can run upto 75% additional in nitrous.

    example

    200 crank hp means 100 shot (if at 50%)
    200 crank hp means 150 shot (if at 75%)

    i suggest direct port for larger shots, but you should be safe runnin a 100shot witha single fogger.
     
  3. hcivic.com

    hcivic.com Senior Member

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  4. formby

    formby learning in progress

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  5. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator VIP

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    if you said rings dont matter you are silly. the composition doesnt matter a LOT, but it still matters...what really matters is the gap. im not sure how much you extra you are supposed to take off for the nitrous, but definitely not advisable to run stock sized rings with N2O...just not smart.

    also 150 shot on cast pistons is asking a lot. if you can cancel the order, id get some JE, Wiseco, or Arias pistons...something forged....

    MOST of your power is going to come out of your tune for this. 150 shot on 11:1 compression is going to make your motor explode on 93 octane. we ran 12:1 with a 200 shot on C16 gas and we still broke 2 rods, bent another and blew a hole in the block. thats after 3 weeks of tuning that car in progressive shots...So Go Crome or Go Home....and i wouldnt suggest much more than 10:1 compression for a 150 shot...thats just silly.

    BTW, if you decide to heed my advice about pistons or if you still need nitrous...check my signature. call tim, he'll hook you up. its gonna be more expensive than honda, but its better than cracking a cast piston with detonation.
     
  6. nismogod

    nismogod Senior Member

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    thats because you dont know what you are doing apparently.

    compression has nothing to do with how much nitrous you can run. CR just limits you because of detonation. If you pull timing, you'll be fine. But i'll assume you know that already. Sd for the cast pistons, they are fine, so long as you aren't detonating. Detonation kills engines. Which is apparently what happened to you.

    Do whatever you want, i still think i'll take advice from drag racers goin low 8's high 7s that have been running nitrous for as long as i've been alive. And thats the advice i share.
     
  7. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator VIP

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    we did pull timing...we had a stroked 351 (over 400cis but i really dont remember and it was running 34 (i think) BTDC. i think it was actually an ignition problem cause its running now with an MSD 6AL and doin fine.

    cast pistons are demensionally more stable than forged, but sometimes things beyond your control cause detonation...with a forged piston you might hear it, but rarely do you have to replace them...the pistons off that windsor still looked new even though the rods broke.
     
  8. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    It is somewhat silly to pull timing just for n20, when you could build the engine properly for nitrous, and run a little lower compression. You are just band-aiding the problem by pulling timing. You aren't in anyway optimizing the power stroke at all by doing it, and a good portion of your fuel mix is just going to go out the tail pipe. Sure, you'll decrease the chance of engine knock. The only time I'd say to run high compression, and retard the timing for nitrous would be if you were to tune the car once for daily driving, without n20, and then another tune for the track with n20, that way you are able to keep good performance with a hi cr when you aren't on the bottle, and then you are able to use the n20 at the track using the same setup, different tune. But if you are gonna use nitrous on the street on a daily basis (IMO a waste though, but to each his own), just build the car the right way the first time.

    Guys running 7s and 8s at the track are NOT likely driving their cars onthe road, as I'm sure this guy is doing, and they aren't usually worried about whether or not they are going to be able to drive their car home after the race. Just keeping things somewhat in check.

    Also, you are wondering about building the block, and my opinion/advice is as follows:
    1) Ditch the idea of block filling if you are going to use a big shot of nitrous. Spend a little cash and get the block sleeved. If you are running a lot of nitrous all the time, some good thick iron sleeves will keep you from cracking the stock ones, which will inevitably happen due to the added stress.
    2) Forged Pistons. the end. Tune all you want, eventually cast pistons are going to crap out on you from all the extra power you are throwing at them. Nothing at all to do with detonation. If you aren't running a LOT more hp than stock (say, <250 whp), I'm not certain, but cast pistons will probably suit you.
    3) Forged rods, for the same reason as the pistons.

    Just my .02, better to build it strong, so it doesn't breaker later on.
     
  9. nismogod

    nismogod Senior Member

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    my car is tuned for no N20, and when the solenoid fires, it automatically pulls proper amount of timing. I run 11:1 CR on factory parts. I dont have an issue.

    CR does not limit nitrous use.
     
  10. formby

    formby learning in progress

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    with?
     
  11. GSRCRXsi

    GSRCRXsi Super Moderator Moderator VIP

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    instead of pulling timing, why dont you have it automatically add more fuel?
     
  12. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    you know what would be sick...Using the vtec maps for nitrous use on my ls motor. That way, when nitrous activates, it switches over to a completely different map. Somebody has to have done it by now.

    Question for nismo: When you use nitrous, does it affect the MAP? because I could see tuning on one map if the nitrous affects MAP readings the same way as a turbo or sc. That would make more sense to me. I'm not really into nitrous, but I see your logic. But pulling timing IS inefficient use of compression.
     
  13. nismogod

    nismogod Senior Member

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    no.

    i have 1 tune. my car is tuned for no nitrous, with a decent NA map.
    then i use and MSD 8975 (multistage timing retard) to automatically retard timing as the nitrous solenoid is activated. Go read the instructions, it will show you how it works. you can also use this part to pull timing when you start the car, making it easier on the starter in a high compression NA setup.

    I pull a specific amount of timing depending on how much nitrous i plan to use.

    GSRCRXsi, why would i add fuel via the computer? why make the computer overly complicated? You see, when you use a wet kit, you use 2 jets. 1 for fuel, and 1 for nitrous. You have to size your jets accordingly based on fuel pressure and bottle pressure. There is absolutely no need to make your computer do anything at all.

    How do you guys think the people do it in carburated vehicles? Why make things overly complicated? Why not go with what is tried and true for 30 years? If you are building a common car, do it the common way. Dont try to be different. If you are building a competition car, and cant find anyway that already exists to do something, then make something. Otherwise, go with whats already there and already works.

    Import guys seem so impressed with what they are doing, most people fail to realize that the domestic crowd has been there and done that. Learn from the past to be better in the future, dont forge a new path parallel to the old one, start at the other ones end and move ahead.


    it may seem that way, but remember, by pulling timing, you are preventing detonation. And by that small pull of timing, you are allowing for more air and fuel to be stuffed into your engine, making up the difference several times over.

    I try to bring this information to light in an effort to pass the knowledge on. I learned/am learning still about nitrous from a group of guys that have been using it for quite a while. Oldest one has been usin the bottle for about 25 years and owns a 8.2x's street legal car. He's a plethora of knowledge and i trust his views on nitrous more then anyone i think i will ever meet.
     
  14. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    Using the computer to do the work seems to make more sense than adding more parts to do the same job that the ecu could be doing. Having a timing retard, and extra jets and hardware seems to me to be equally complicated mechanically as just doing it through the ecu if the ecu is capable of doing this. If I get nitrous, I'm getting a dry kit, just because it is a simpler system to implement, and requires a lesser parts count. Plus, I wouldn't be running a huge shot. Then I could utilize the stock components too work for me, by addition oof fuel by increasing duty cycle, and ignition by running a dual map setup for my ecu. I am sure people have done it.

    I understand where you are coming from, it just seems sort of old school... :)
     
  15. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator VIP

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    if i were gonna set it up on a honda, i would use a WOT switch and run 2 maps (since i wouldnt run nitrous on a DD) and then setup the right nitrous map for the track and one for no nitrous DD conditions.

    that way, when im at WOT (where the nitrous would be activated) im running the right fuel map to begin with. I know that the kit comes with the right jets even in DPI, but sometimes it still needs tuning...screw sometimes...a lot of the times. especially for shots over 100.
     
  16. nismogod

    nismogod Senior Member

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    "seems old school" thats funny. lol. seems the old schoolers are still the fastest. but do as you may. i can't offer much help on a dry system, i wouldn't use one.

    besides, mike, this is not about your build ;-) its for the thread starter. werd.
     
  17. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    [​IMG] just offering suggestions/food for thought.

    meh, old schoolers would be a lot faster if they had better tools... :ph34r:
     
  18. Abrasintegra

    Abrasintegra Junior Member

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    Ok well to help clear up this little testostorome battle let me tell you the methods to madness and nuts and bolts. Bergy's right in the aspect it matters if I can drive my car home actually I want to drive it almost everywhere. The N2O is basiclly if my mouth writes a check my car can't pay for. For instance my last topic of smoking the SRT-4. Here in the crap hole known as south cacalacie (carolina), there's not a big tuner population, most retards just put an annoying 5 dollar ebay exhaust on their shit brown 88 prelude then think they own the world (or my personal favorate the aluminum wing that gives the driver the impression that he's somehow added 800 hp to his geo). Anyways I don't want to go turbo because I'll scare away the easy money with the forever known whine and hiss. I want my car to appear as though I'm a moron with an intake/exhaust with rims and a body kit. Do I have N2O they'll have to play a little pay a little if they want to know bad enouph. I'm looking for easy picks till I reimburst myself for the project then I'll look for the challenges (don't think I'm in it for some money, I enjoy speed as well as a bit of deception).

    There, now nuts and bolts. I'm not going to run a 150 shot if somthing went wrong and piston rods become projectiles my wife.... well lets say she wouldn't be very happy. I was thinking max 100 shot but as I stated I'm new to nitrous and I'll only do that if it can be done with my engine health in mind. I'm not broke but I'm not loaded either so if somthing small goes bad fine but blowing the motor, I'd rather not have that (duh).

    So with all this in mind can I get a concensus answer on what needs to be done to make this work the best. Thanks. And if you want to keep argueing by all means have at it but please, a little help first.
     
  19. nismogod

    nismogod Senior Member

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    run a single fogger, wet. start with a 50 then move up. remember, 50% of your base crank hp you can add easily.

    use the MSD 8975 to pull timing only when spraying. that way you keep your base tune. Pull 2 degrees for every 50shot. Or atleast until you learn how to read plugs and what not. Also, use a jet calculator like this one

    http://www.coldfusionnitrous.com/calculator.aspx

    to figure jet sizes. summit, jegs, and most any shop should have whatever sizes you need. make sure to get a pressure gauge on the bottle.

    its all simple math honestly. if you decide to go 100+, get 1 step colder plugs, also, i suggest for anything over 100 shot, go direct port.
     
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