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need and opinion fast

Discussion in 'HYBRID -> BA-BB /CA-CD' started by TeamUrbanChaos, Jul 20, 2004.

  1. TeamUrbanChaos

    TeamUrbanChaos Certified H22 Super-tech

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    i need a quick opinion people....im about to purchase one of two motors by next week...i have a 92 accord lookin to most deffinately do a motor swap but ive been doin a shit load of research and ive come to the end of the road not knowing where to go??....i heard all the raves about the H22 motor and it was my initial conclution to get one but then i started lookin into turbos and how much more efficient they are as far as horsepower so now im stuck at this point. a JDM H22a1 is going for about 2000 for a complete swap which includes everything but im only gettin 200 HP which is really only about 180 or less to the wheels. but im also able to get my hands om a JDM F22 SOHC motors on for about 500 a pop..and i can still use all my stock parts from my original motor so thats a 1500 difference.what i was going to do was purchase this motor and piece by piece build a custom turbo kit and jsut go from there but at the same time i want efficency and reliability which ive heard turbocharged cars dont have the greatest reputation in that but someone please give me their opinion as to what they would do.? :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
     
  2. NotUrAverage_Si

    NotUrAverage_Si Senior Member

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    turbo F22 > H22 all motor.

    As for what you heard about turbocharged cars not having the greatest reputation, that's what engine management systems are for. If it were up to me I'd go turbo...oh wait...I did. :)
     
  3. tab

    tab Super Moderator

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    Although he's right, I have a different opinion. Buy a H22, and build the rods and pistons up. The H22 is a better motor to start with. Then, turbo later. Just don't waste your money on a bunch of bolt-ons for later.

    I have a 92 Accord, and I'll probably boost sometime next year.

    Don't buy a P13 if you plan to boost. Buy a P28 or a P72, and have it chipped with the correct fuel maps and timing. The P13 is not supported for engine management.

    BTW, you can get a engine for much less than 2000. I bet you could get the engine for 12-1300. Buy a P28 from the junkyard for $40, and keep the F22 trans, since the longer gearing would be fine for turbo.

    My 2 cents.
     
  4. hybrid89

    hybrid89 thistownsucks...

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    I'm with Tab on this one. I would build the motor to handle more than what you want. The H22 is a stronger motor to start with (in my opinion). If you spend teh extra bread on the setup now, you should be much happier in the long run when you can turn up the boost and not worry about sending something trough your hood.

    $.02

    matt
     
  5. TeamUrbanChaos

    TeamUrbanChaos Certified H22 Super-tech

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    my issue is im trying to get the most bang for my buck cuz im not workin with a whole lot of cash...i mean like i said before i was initially going to buy an H22 and just keep it stock aside form the normal bolt ons, but i think in the long run it would be alot easier, alot faster and also alot more fun to throw a turbo in my f22...i mean for one, if i replace it with a JDM edition f22 i not going to have to change anything cuz everything is interchangable so its a direct replacemnt and being the comprerssion is a low 8.8 to 1 which is ideal for boost i think it would be a perfect swap and and i'd be saving money....as much as i would love to go with the H22 and turbo it...my budget wont ever allow me to do that anytime soon so im basically have two choices....(1) buy an H22 and call it a day...or...(2) swap out the old f22 and go with the JDM F22 and turbo that... so out of those of two choices...what would you do??? :blink:
     
  6. tab

    tab Super Moderator

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    This is true, and not a bad choice. However, I've heard that anything over 9 psi is pushing it for that block. With your budget, you can head in the right direction. Buy a H22, and enjoy. Turbo with VTEC, high compression for low end torque, and turbo power+VTEC up above. Read the Static vs. Effective compression article in the boost article section. High compression + turbo is one of the best setups to have, just a little harder to tune.

    Currently, I am NA. I have been happy for a while, but now I want more(who doesn't). I'm trading over to P28, and I'll have to find all the stuff to put my turbo setup together. I'm going to do datalogging, and tune with Uberdata or Hondata.

    You are talking about buying a F22. I assume you blew yours? If not, boost what you got. If your swapping, the H22 swap in your car is a piece of cake, and I'd be happy to assist you with any questions you have, since you have the same exact car as me. Otherwise, stay away from the F22B1. There are more changes than you expect. I have no experience with the F22B, but I imagine that it will require minor changes, just like the F22B1. I recently did a F22A1>F22B1 swap. It sucked much more than my F22A1>JDM H22A swap.

    Also, keep in mind that the H22 has a better oil pump, and oil squirters for the bottom end, stock. Import Builders said that the weak part of the H22 is the ring land of the piston. This is why I suggested pistons and rods. You could post the block to help with cylinder walk, and have a solid base.

    :shrug:
     
  7. BoogieDown

    BoogieDown Senior Member

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    most bang for the buck?? go H22 from http://www.hmotorsonline.com/shop/ put 75-80 shot of N02 on it w/ some good tuneing and you'll have some good power.
    just my .02
     
  8. TeamUrbanChaos

    TeamUrbanChaos Certified H22 Super-tech

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    well in my car i currently have have the usdm F22a1 which has a bad rod knock so thats gonna have to go regardless but as far as replacement it seems to be so much easier to swap it with the JDM version of the F22a1 cuz everything is the same.
     
  9. tab

    tab Super Moderator

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    A JDM engine will cost a few hundred dollars in shipping alone. I bought my H22A for $911, and $350 shipping. So $1260 to my door. The guy I bought the F22B1 from told me that he bought his H22A through Hmotorsonline and he paid $1100 to the door. I guess they cut better deals over the phone than you'll find on their site.

    Now, cruising Ebay for a JDM F22B(I have), you'll find them for about $750 + shipping. That's about a $160 difference for me.

    Honestly, a USDM F22 would be fine for turboing, and much cheaper + easier to find. I believe the F22A counterpart for JDM is the F20A. Check the engine list in the Hondaswap reference section.:nod:

    I've been wrong before.
     
  10. TeamUrbanChaos

    TeamUrbanChaos Certified H22 Super-tech

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    has anybody here ever heard of a JDM F22B?? is a DOHC non vtec motor that apparently was in the japanese accords and preludes?? if so, can anyone tell me if this motor is a direct swap and if it is, can i still use my stock 92 accord P0A computer and wire harness??? heres a link to what the motor looks like if you dont kno what im talkin about :spam: F22 MOTOR:spam:
     
  11. tab

    tab Super Moderator

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    Yeah, I've heard of them. They're pretty comparable to the H23. They sell for 6-800 bucks on Ebay. It's a DOHC non-vtec engine that puts out 160 hp. I think you'd still have to adjust your fuel maps at the very least. I've never seen one actually swapped, so I don't know about the little details.
     
  12. TeamUrbanChaos

    TeamUrbanChaos Certified H22 Super-tech

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    ok thats cool but jsut from your knoweledge of motor swaps or jsut taking a wild guess, being that this is an "F" series motor do u still think i can still use everything from my stock f22 (IE).. tranny, harness ,ECU?? :blink:
     
  13. tab

    tab Super Moderator

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    yes, yes, and maybe. I don't think your stock ECU will have the correct fuel maps, and I don't know what the redline is on the JDM engine. It might be ok, but I doubt if it will be optimal.

    No matter what engine you put in it, you'll use your stock harness, and modify it to work. It's simply not feasible to rewire your car to accept a different harness. The main plugs are different on every car. A 95 Accord doesn't have the same plugs as a 93. They're close, but it's easier to modify the stock harness than to change the chassis harness to accept a different engine harness.

    Tranny will definitely bolt up.

    Going from SOHC to DOHC, you might have to use a different power steering hose, but maybe not. It all depends if you can bolt up your stock pump.

    The engine will bolt up fine. The accessories should bolt up fine with the right combination of mounts. Some of the mounts differ slightly. With the wrong combo, the belts won't line up. You'll manage.

    Still, for the amount of trouble, I'd go H22. The difference in cost will only be about $200. The power gain would be big for that $200. The only difference is wiring up about four wires.
     
  14. TeamUrbanChaos

    TeamUrbanChaos Certified H22 Super-tech

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    well if i go H22, what parts do u think id be able to use from my original motor. ebays got a H22 motor only for 1000..if i get that what else do i have to get to make it work. i know from previous forums that i can still use my stock tranny even tho it isnt recomemded but thats all i kno..as far as the ECU i kno i deffinately have to get the p13 and as far as the wiring harness i am unsure if i can still use my stock wire harness and i kno im gonna need the hasport mounts so make it fit....i guess one of the reasons that i was interested in gettin the JDM f22 is that i dont have to go through so much BS with rewiring and i can save some big bucks towards a turbo setup because im not going to need any additional parts in my accord to make the f22 fit but if i can get an H22 and still beable to use my stock wiring harness then i probably go for that but if i cant then ima have to save up another 1000 and get the complete swap with tranny ,ecu,and harness which i really wasnt lookin forward to doing but i kno i might be happier with an h22 but for right now i really dont kno what to do?? :shrug: :shrug:
     
  15. tab

    tab Super Moderator

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    92 Accord. Easy swap, I know. You'll want a Power Steering hose from a DOHC prelude to go on the pump that comes with the motor(hopefully). You can keep your AC, use either alternator, and use a four groove belt. One wire to power the new internal coil and you'll have spark. Extend the fuel line, since it comes in on the drivers side of the H22. Buy an aftermarket header, and relocate your O2 sensor to just before the cat(there's a bung in the header, $88 on EBAY, see my pics). That header bolts right up to your cat, and saves you from going to the muffler shop. You'll want a P13 or a chipped P28 or P72. I'd go with a chipped P28. If you can get someone to chip it for you, it won't cost much. P13 cost me 160 + shipping. I paid the junkyard $40 for the P28, someone is burning a chip for me, and the parts cost around $20. You'll add four wires to your existing harness, and use your STOCK mounts. Hasport mounts aren't needed. Your mounts are perfect for the H22, unlike the 94-95's. Stock radiator + hoses. You'll use your stock vacuum line setup, and an aftermarket intake(CAI is $65 on Ebay if you don't have one already.

    The hardest part is the wiring, and I could walk you through that step by step. It's easy to do once you've done it. Finding the correct pins is kinda hard the first time, but with my help you'll have no problems.

    I did my own swap the first time in two days, with no help.

    OK, now look at your parts list. If you go turbo, you'd already be purchasing the intake, header/manifold, ECU setup for chipping, power steering hose(on a DOHC), and putting in an engine. For a few hundred bucks more, you get an engine with a better oil pump, bottom end squirters, better breathing, and ready to hit 8k. I don't suggest you try to kill the H22, but I beat the shit out of mine daily for about a year and a half now. I am convinced that it is a worthy engine, even if you decide to buy IB spec pistons and rods for boost.

    Any more ???? Just ask.
     
  16. TeamUrbanChaos

    TeamUrbanChaos Certified H22 Super-tech

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    ok great man thanks for the info..its really helped me out alot and im deffinately leaning towards gettin the H22. someones got one on ebay for 1000 with the alternator, power steering and a/c.. so i might pick that up and as u said i can use my stock wiring harness so thats cool too but i didnt understand what u meant my adding four more wires to the computer?? what are those for?? is it for the VTEC or jsut for the car to run? also what about axles..i hear i have to use axles from an SH prelude? dont kno how true that is but im only going by what people are telling me. do u think its something i can do my self..ive done a ZC swap into a 89 civic but i heard the VTEC's are nothing like the non -vtec.
     
  17. tab

    tab Super Moderator

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    Make sure it's not the ATTS model H22. There's a thread all about why if you search. The axles are the same. I'm pretty sure you have to use the Prelude half shaft. Sorry that I forgot, since I have an automatic and that didn't apply to me.

    The extra wires are for VTEC(two wires to ECU, one ground), IAB(intake air bypass solenoid), and Knock sensor. If I were you, I'd get the P28. The P13 isn't supported for engine manage like Hondata. The P28 is supported, which will help you when boost time comes, and the P28 doesn't look for a knock sensor. Wiring VTEC is not hard. It's intimidating at first, but it's a cakewalk if you have help. The engine will run without that wiring, but not near as strong. Cut out VTEC and your 200 hp car is at 125. The knock sensor code retards your timing, probably cutting that down to 110. The IAB helps you retain some low end power. Without those three things, you're probably running the power of a civic. That knock sensor code is a real fucker, kills your gas mileage, power, and makes taking off feel sluggish.

    Soooooo, get the engine, buy a P28, have it chipped with H22 maps(guys in the ECU section would probably do it for cheap), and sell the knock sensor on Ebay for ~$50. The knock sensor has been a pain in my ass since I did the swap. Several people have had the same problem. I have a thread in the ECU section if you're interested.

    Oh, and figure $250-350 for shipment on that motor. I paid $911+350 shipping for mine, with PS pump, alternator, all the brackets and sensors, cut harness, header and heatshield(no downpipe).
     
  18. TeamUrbanChaos

    TeamUrbanChaos Certified H22 Super-tech

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    ok cool sounds good....so if i got what u said correct...the H22 comes with a knock sensor right??....so now what ima do is go buy a p28 correct? i found this ecu on ebay so im assumin this is the right one?""""""LINK 2 P28 ECU""""":(P28 ECU) and how do i go about in gettin it chipped or whatever do i buy the chip or is it something i have to find from a friend or someone to download?? im kinda confused about that. and also the computer your telling me to use if for a B16 so are u sure this is the right one? im assuming you are right considering youve done this swap already but i jsut wanna make sure i do this thing right so ima go ahead and get the motor and buy a p28 ecu and take out the knock out sensor...is there a knock out sensor in the stock accords?? ive never heard of them but i did read your thread and apparently EVERYONES having the same problem with their H22 about the CEL commin on about the knock sensor. :blink:
     
  19. tab

    tab Super Moderator

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    H22 comes with a Knock Sensor, yes. Buy a P28, yup. I think that ECU is overpriced. Ask around, or put a want ad in the Hondaswap parts for sale section. There are a lot of people around that can burn chips, and have access to the stock H22 fuel/timing maps.

    The P28 came in a couple models. It was for the B16 I think, but that is why the maps are wrong for the H22. Once you have a socketed(chipped) ECU, you'll be one step closer to your turbo goals and engine management.

    Stock Accords didn't have a knock sensor. The knock sensor just listens for gas ping, and retards the timing accordingly. But a false code trips the CEL, and you "feel" the light come on, literally. It's that noticeable of a power loss. They came in high compression DOHC engines, IE: H22,H23,B16,F20C(S2000), and probably the K series, but I don't know. The H22 has 10.6:1 compression, whereas the F22 has 8.8:1 compression.

    There's no way I'd pay $250 for that ECU. The reference section has a list of Honda ECU's.

    P28 1992-1995 Honda Civic EX/Si / del Sol Si
    p28 1992-1995 Honda Del Sol Si/Civic Hatchback Si/ Civic EX

    Buy one from the junkyard, and pay someone to install a socket and burn you a chip. The socket stays put once installed. The chips are easily traded. PGMFI.org

    radnulb from this site is Blundar on PGMFI.org
     
  20. TeamUrbanChaos

    TeamUrbanChaos Certified H22 Super-tech

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    theres an h22 complete swap on ebay going for about 1500 shipped but the thing with that is that its an automatic but what i wanted to kno, is the ECU's for the h22 the same on a manual and automatic?? in other words can i use the same ECU for my car if i just swap ouy my manual tranny onto this motor or it wont work?? :blink: :blink:
     
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