new to engine building need help

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No two engines are created equally.

I've personally witnessed a FACTORY D16A6, valve cover had never even been removed, with 150,000 miles, pull 149WHP on a DynoJet (CLOGGED air filter mind you. once torn down, the stickness was verified as the shop owner was NOT trying to believe the numbers he was seeing). Honda's known to have the occasional "freak" engine floating around the street.

You'd be surprised how much tuning there is left to do on a stock engine, even the B16s and B18C5s. Tuning alone can always crank out a few extra ponies from stock. As far as the build, a fully balanced, well assembled bottom end, would free up some power for sure. I wouldn't expect to ever make more than 160WHP without anything more than bolt-ons though. If you want to use all OE parts, you can build a frankenstein, but, that entails a rebuild, and machine work for maximum efficiency, and even then you'll be hard pressed to supersede the power of a B18C5 (as most of the best OE B-series parts come from it, unless of course you choose to go B20\VTEC, in which case, you could realize around 200WHP mostly stock.)

I would concentrate on an overhaul for now to ensure your engine's current health and health moving forward. Come up with a game plan before you build.. rome wasn't built in a day ya know... or something like that... yeah...
 
I concede to your wisdom.

I try to look at the build of a particular car as objectively as possible. Mostly, I analyze the steps it takes to get to one's end goal for the vehicle and evaluate the potential cost for it. I've learned in my own experience that most car enthusiasts often become disappointed at the cost of their modifications to their car because they frequently take a "stage" route to building. Here's what I mean:

Let's say someone joins the tuning crowd with a bone stock Civic. When they add mods to it, it's generally a strut bar, intake\header\exhaust, and a lot of other light, basically worthless by themselves bolt-on modifications. People lower their cars without camber kits, on stock struts, they buy a cam and leave the head and ECU stock, never touch the fuel or ignition until the engine won't run properly, install part by part on their car without ever considering the effects of the particular change they are making.

If you want Progress Group Coilovers, the CHEAPEST route to getting there is not EVER settling before you buy them. A lot of people in my time I have seen settle for less until they can get better parts. So, instead of those Progress units, they buy Drop Zone springs, put them on stock struts, and cost themselves a whole lot of money in labor for installation, in tires once they wear, in struts once they give, and the labor to replace all of those, not to mention the cost of just replacing the tires and the like. It costs less to buy what you want and never settle for less.

I try to be as economically oriented as possible, using my own mistakes as a great teacher, and carefully observing the tuning community around me. I suppose my current view on project build itinerary is still a bit skewed, and I'm always willing to be corrected, so please, do as you have been and step up when I get the wacky-mouth goin' on. I just believe that when people attack an engine build, they want too much for their budget and often have unrealistic goals for power, longevity and further upgradability with their incessant wants for something NOW because they feel like they are behind in progress compared to their friends in the community. I encourage people to build once because I've learned that it's more gratifying to have that "finished" feeling, and not to be standing at cruise-ins talking more about what you still need to do, rather than what you've done.

I appreciate your comment, Blanco, and I will adjust my thinking and advice accordingly. I'm just glad your on this board, it's nice feeling like I'm not the smartest one, I'd rather learn than teach myself, but I have this insatiable need to help others, so I'm caught in the middle.

I'll review this thread after work and come up with some better potential builds for the threat starter to consider that are more economical and have great potential expandability, affording them performance now for less money to tide them over until they've saved enough to add on.

GTG folks!
 
I've just always thought why put yourself in the hole $500 when you want $3000 worth of suspension you know? Then it takes $3500 to get where you want to have marginal performance gains in between (unless you find a great deal, in which case, $500 can go a long way and instead you would have >marginal gains to be content with until you have $3000 laying around. And actually, going with your logic, which is proving to be more efficient than mine, by the time the $500 suspension became inadequate and you had saved the $3000, the current cost of the $3000 suspension would have gone down, allowing you to achieve BETTER SOONER! So basically, your idea is simply more economic per unit of time and satisfaction is greater throughout! Excellent work I say. Wow, I kinda had a mid paragraph epiphany in there, lol)

However, there are elements where further planning is more economic considering not only funds, but time and effort as well. That's why in mAUTOfying there is a lot of thought and consideration necessary to achieve the optimal experience for oneself. Combining the two ideas, it's better to spend a little on your suspension now to have at least SOMETHING while you are waiting for the more expensive suspension, but make sure you are being calculative and not just doing something like adding springs, but no camber kit and struts. You can do a set of struts, springs, and a camber kit + an alignment after it for far less than the cost of the more expensive suspension, so you are not half assing the build, but it will tide you over effectively until you can afford it, thus, both concepts reach a mutual harmony.

The same concepts can be applied to engine building. The upgradability of your platform (base block\head\intake\exhaust\tranny\electronics combo) is always a major avenue of consideration. Once again, the principles Blanco and I just discussed are of importance here for maximum project economy.

You want something now, know what you want in the future, so you must pursue your current actions with some thought. To parallel the suspension example, let's talk about an LS\VTEC build with a future plan for turbo-charging. The turbo setup is the $3000 suspension, and the current build is the $500 suspension. What I was talking about with current platform upgradability for the future comes into play here. Yeah, you want to build it SOME now, but how is your currently planned build relevant to the future status of your engine?

Preparing the block is key. Generally, LS\VTEC builders choose to use B16 heads. GSR heads have increased in popularity and the occasional slip-ups of the factory hand porting\polishing of the B18C5 heads mixed with their larger price tag generally drive people back to the B16 for it's comparable casting quality, factory flow and proven performance for far less money and greater availability. Let's assume for this example a B18A1 block, and a B16A head.

The block's preparation here is key as future plans of boost are present. The head is generally well fussed over coming from the factory, so upgrading it now will only cause you to spend more money sooner during the project. It will perform reasonably for a while over your stock power, leaving the block the most sensible item to focus on now. This would be a time to note that doing it right the first time is ALWAYS the number one way to guarantee the minimum expenditure of money, effort and time.

You want strength in the bottom end for a turbo-charged application. Beyond strength, there is engine health and longevity to consider, as well as compression ratio, r\s ratio, rev capability, oiling, and a few other issues of minimal concern at this point. Posting is a highly recommended process for engines receiving no greater than 20psi. A block girdle is also well-backed by most engine builders and people running non-stock engine combinations, especially those requiring greater bottom end strength. The cost of sleeving and the time it takes are impractical for most street engine applications and is heavily outweighed in dollar per performance value considerations compared to posting and adding a block guard.

A balanced rotating assembly is paramount for proper engine health. Worn\spun bearings can be avoided this way as well as a numerous amount of other detrimental bottom end conditions that are available to occur (most of which I can't recall now, but a balanced bottom end, mixed with the strength of posts and a guard are enough protection for my sanity if I were personally running boost, especially above 10psi). A Fluidampr pulley, or a stock piece in good or greater condition, and a lightweight flywheel (which are generally balanced by the way they are made) are the finishing touches to a properly balanced bottom end. The only other factors here are the weights of the rods\pistons\pins etc..

The factory LS crank and pistons would be more than acceptable for this application, provided it's well tuned and not destined to reach over 250WHP at the time of their use. Since in this example, the turbo-charger wouldn't be added without replacement of the pistons\rods, the factory rods are more than sufficient for the "waiting" period of this build (which is post build, pre turbo-charging\rebuild).

ARP rod bolts and head studs at this point in history, for this engine combination, should be considered as necessary as oil if they aren't by now.

Proper component selection due to mixed engine parts is key. It should be generally well know that the GSR water pump\timing belt are necessary (even with the B16 head) and an ITR oil pump is the best OE choice (ENDYN offers a reworking of the ITR oil pumps for all of the oiling efficiency improvements you will need for a while, staving you off until you are turbo-charged, at which time, you would buy a Moroso or comparable pan and pick up and install simultaneously.) The head-gasket should match the block and the dowel pin situation needs to be figured out before assembly and selection of the head-gasket.

I'm going to do a brief aside here to talk about VTEC head additions and supplying the additional oil\mating the head to the block here.

For the last couple of years Golden Eagle has offered a complete LS\VTEC conversion System which is applicable to the B20\VTEC setup as well. It utilizes a sandwhich plate on the rear of the block, a SSB line to the head, a reworked OE head-gasket (for dowel pin alignment\fitment and bore corrections) and tapered dowel pins to alleviate the need for machining the head\block to mate them together (the alignment dowel sizes differ between the VTEC head and the non VTEC block, the tapered pins stop you from having to open up the smaller holes to match the larger, creating an almost irreversible modification to the head. The head gaskets obviously differ then at the dowel holes so the conversion system has worked all of this out rather well).

ENDYN has offered a premium quality oil plumbing kit to the public, and I would suggest using that instead, a Cometic head gasket matching your final bore size and thickness needs, and the Golden Eagle dowel pins that are sold separately. This will make the engine combo other wise "stock" in function and compatibility.

You should buy pistons during the first portion of the build. They need to match the bore you want, have VTEC sized (or adequately, however you want to put it) valve reliefs, and are at the level of compression you want. The head-gasket will accommodate any further compression changes you'd like to make, as would machining the block deck or head deck. These calculations need to be made prior to installation, as well as ccing the chambers and figuring other specs (like piston\valve clearance, ticking room, etc..).

If you are going to bore the cylinders EVER, now is the time to do it to have it out of the way for when you add more to your engine later. I recommend 81.5-82mm. 81.5mm seems to be the most popular choice and best for the sleeves. So, be sure to order the correct pistons, corrected bore head-gasket, and make sure to work out the piston\cylinder wall clearances as well. Everything should rotate freely at the end.

I recommend Roller Wave pistons from ENDYN, have them coat the skirts, and make sure you index the rings (instructions on their site) ((they offer Total Seal piston ring packages with their pistons, these are the best)).

The crosshatch of the cylinders needs to be at 60\30 degrees to seat the rings well post install.

At this point, your bottom end will be ready for boost. It's now strong, balanced, and "needs" virtually nothing to accept the addition of the turbo-charger, effectively creating little or no need to change anything about your block when you add the FI setup.

The only change I recommend making to the head, or that area of the engine at this point (once again, as OE performance is adequate pre-turboing), is adding adj. fpr & gauge, as well as cam gears. Running the computer on advanced program is recommended at this point as well, as post assembly, with mostly stock engine components (those added for strength and reliability) you will still have many ponies to tweak out as you correct the A\F and timing. Once this is complete, you will be able to reliably run the engine on the street without worries of catastrophic failure, to about 8,400rpms if I'm not mistaken, belting out similar power to an ITR.

With the addition of a turbo-charger, I'd recommend you upgrade the head to some sort of stage1 package and tune, without doing any machine work (porting\etc..) and complete the tune\functionality of the engine to establish it's reliability\drivability, while being able to use current performance data to point you in the right direction for more ramped up cams\valvetrain, with matching port work. You will get away with good power increases just updating the boltable parts and not doing any machine work. Most stage1 kits seem to be configured well for light turbo charging applications, and when you start off with the kit, you shouldn't realistically be running more than 8lbs to break her in and begin to fuss over your setup.

The Motorola 2.5 BAR MAP sensor has replaced the GM 3 BAR, buy one when you exceed 8lbs (not necessary till approx 15, but recommended).

The gauges you'll want to consider running, before and after turbo-charging dependent:

oil pressure
oil temperature
water pressure
voltmeter
EGT
Boost prs.
(do NOT waste your money on A\F, tach, water temp... you have them factory and they are not that far off)
(also, don't waste your funds on a VAFC)

I've heard audible knock warning sensors hooked up in the cabin of the vehicle which provide adequate warning to discontinue engine load increase or lower it in time to prevent damaging levels of detonation, those are always fantastic.

I recommend the ENDYN modified Bosch fuel pump. The stock injectors will be happiest at 55psi and up to about 130% over stock power of the engine they came from, the 310cc pieces from RC Engineering are great for this, as is the prs. reg. Fuel rail isn't quite necessary until you are forced, and the fuel pump doesn't need to be changed until then either.

Anyway, I hope this came out well. I'd like to see you spend a little bit of money now for SOME performance increases while staying reliable, and upgradable if not already prepared ahead of time for the next steps. This should prove easier on your wallet over time since the heaviness of the different stages is divided up, but the money you put into each stage will provide you with enough before\after differences to keep you happy in between.

I know this isn't near complete, but I haven't had much time to review it and modify anything, it's fairly close in my opinion though to a good itinerary to slowly follow on the way to one's goals.

You study Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, yes Blanco? I've recently rejoined my old studio to pursue cross training in Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and possibly complete my quest for a black belt in Kempo :) I also study Jeet Kune Do privately.



When you do, consider the ENDYN PCV Breather kit (consider it heavily).

Also, at this time you should consider upgrading the valve train and cams
 
No two engines are created equally.

I've personally witnessed a FACTORY D16A6, valve cover had never even been removed, with 150,000 miles, pull 149WHP on a DynoJet (CLOGGED air filter mind you. once torn down, the stickness was verified as the shop owner was NOT trying to believe the numbers he was seeing). Honda's known to have the occasional "freak" engine floating around the street.

You'd be surprised how much tuning there is left to do on a stock engine, even the B16s and B18C5s. Tuning alone can always crank out a few extra ponies from stock. As far as the build, a fully balanced, well assembled bottom end, would free up some power for sure. I wouldn't expect to ever make more than 160WHP without anything more than bolt-ons though. If you want to use all OE parts, you can build a frankenstein, but, that entails a rebuild, and machine work for maximum efficiency, and even then you'll be hard pressed to supersede the power of a B18C5 (as most of the best OE B-series parts come from it, unless of course you choose to go B20\VTEC, in which case, you could realize around 200WHP mostly stock.)

I would concentrate on an overhaul for now to ensure your engine's current health and health moving forward. Come up with a game plan before you build.. rome wasn't built in a day ya know... or something like that... yeah...

That's some badass #s. I heard that those "freak" engines are called "Yellow Wednesdays". Where it got it's name from?? IDK. Also, how much power you can get out of any motor all depends on the tune. :thumbsup:
 
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