one nation under god

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Yet again, you are trying to compare to different things. religious names for Towns, phrases on money and monuments, etc. are very different than professing the existance of a god (and saying that we are the only nation under him) in the pledge. Saying the pledge acknowledges the existance of a creator, whereas living in los angeles/los cruces does not force you into professing the existance of a god/God. Do you see where I am going with this? Living in a city with a christian name does not force you to acknowledge the existance of a higher being, if you dont like the associations your city name has you can either move, or lobby to have it changed. Saying the pledge on the other hand implicitly acknowledges religion through the professed existance of God. Your crosswalk example is meant to be dumb, right? Crosses (crucifixes) existed before jesus was pinned upon one for breaking the laws of his land, you know that right? There is no context to link the cross in crosswalk to the cross that jesus was hung out to dry on.

How would i express an answer to my child should they ask about a Los Cruses? well it would be something like this:
"Son/Daughter, For some reason these crazy christians have chosen to glorify the weapon that did in the person that they feel is their personal savior. In honor of this person they have chosen to name a town after his murder weapon"
"Bud daddy, that is relativly speaking absurd. The notion of glorifying the murder weapon of your savior is the most morbid thing i've ever heard. That means if he was shot to death, these people would instead of a cross, wear guns and name towns after guns. These people sure are a few cans short of a six pack"
"I know Son/Daughter, but such is the plight of modern America."
"Hey dad, those are mormons across the street, can i throw rocks at them?"
"Sure thing, In fact ill join you."

Or at least something like that.

As to my views on war, Ill again ask that you read my previous posts and you will see my very simple solution.
As to the new beheading (of course i question if its real) i say that is a sad thing. Of course the most sad thing of all is that these people are going into a very dangerous area, disregarding their personal safety and all that their loss will effect, all for money. The fact that they would risk their lives for a relativly modest sum (well, relative to their lost life) of money absolutly speaks of the greed and materialism that is so prevalent in america.
The other sad fact is that this man's life was not worth to america releasing Al-queda prisoners. In refusing to comply with his captors demands America has in effect signed his death certificate. You try and make it sound like the rank and file of al queda will be dramatically bolstered by the release of some of the POWs, when in fact they are having no problem recruiting young men that hate America; we've ensured that they will have a steady supply of young people who hate America for generations to come.
 
Guy, seriously, your arguments are so illogical, and nonsensicle. I really don;t know how you do not see it.

Your arguing there is a peacefull way out of every situation.
1) then you make an argument the USA "provoked" an attack on pearl harbor when it was attemping to make a PEACEFUL RESOLUTION TO JAPANS AGRESSION!! Thats what embargo's are man! PEACEFUL! Nobody dies. The USA was making peaceful dealings to deal with japan, and then Japan attacks us, kills a few thousand people and you say we provoked it? Man, I thought you just said that there is a peacefull way out of every situation? How come Japan didn;t know this, we WERE dealing with them peacefully man! the USA was promoting PEACE through talks, and it did nothing! Don;t you remember, just weeks before the attack, Japan flew its people to the USA to have peace talks? You make no sense. the USA wa actually doing what you say was right! Talking peace. Problem was, the other side doesn;t care and killed us anyway.
2) "Dont do things that will unreasonably piss people off" Your refering to radical islam. Let me educate you, real quick. I am not a muslim, and I am a Christian American. BY This I am pissing them off. THEY HATE ME. According to you, the ONLY way to not piss them off is to become a muslim and join them, because if you don't radical islam wants you dead. Your making 0 sense, again by your statements. Do you realize that? Seriously? Don;t you realize its IMPOSSIBLE to take every side of every issue so that you DON'T PISS ANYONE OFF?
3) Guy, did you know, that YOU, yourself are pissing off people right now in the middle east just things you believe? Just the FACT your an American is worthy of your death, according to some radicals. So, according to your philosophy, your only option is to join the terrorists, and leave the USA. Its illogical.
4) the final flaw in your argument is that your not taking into consideration, the people your trying not to piss off, are the only ones that want you dead! If you disagree with me, I say GREAT, lets discuss it, your a free man! You disagree with the terrorists, they say "when can I capture you and cut off your head". Well, they proved again yesterday in saudi Arabia, you just have to be an American, for your head to be gone.

What will it take to change your mind, seriously, I have proven your theories are false beyond a reasonable doubt, not only false, illogical. I don;t understand why you cannot see the above 4 points? I am trying to help you, this is important for the future of your kids, and theirs. I think Bush said it best:

"we are not trying to negotiate with terrorists, we are trying to vanquish them"

Well said, lets get to it. Bush understands whats at stake. I don;t think you want bombs going off at the mall when your shopping and the war coming here. Its easy to talk about what the right things to do would be, until its happening to you. For you to see the truth about what to do, you have to put yourself, and your family into the sitations. Imagine your whole family was on one of those planes that flew into a building. Does that matter that they were not there or were there? Are you going to blame Bush, or whoever and do nothing to solve the problem so that never happens again? There is nobody to talk to, negotiate with, they want us dead, no matter what. That alone defeats your mindset. One day you will understand. You got your whole life, I hope. there is a time when you need to take a stand on terrorists, and have them all rounded up. Better sooner than later. Its a rough time in our lives, but our kids will benifit.

much respect,

sincerely

Jeff
 
Real christians are all for the death penalty. But just so you know:

Luke 20, 9-17. its as clear as clear can get, even a fourth grader could understand it. Its out of Jesus mouth directly. He even says a 2nd time to be clear.

Guess what it says? it says if you murder somebody, that you should be killed also.

what a shock! it can't say that, can it!

The people who wrote the bible were so smart, whether you believe it was insired by GOD or not, thats really irrellevant, because whether it is, or not, its the definition of a religion. Anyway, they were SO SMART they even inlcuded your line in there, just for you.

Your line is:

"May this never be" lol I mean that is exactly what your saying, its breaking the 10 commandments. And Jesus even refers to that directly with the word "law".

So, again, you have been undisputedly proven wrong. Christians are 100%, FOR killing people who deserve it because they have killed another person by murder.

So will you, for the sake of 1 first time, in the history of any chat board, admit your wrong on this topic?

Your proven wrong, its in writing, its undisputed. Anybody, and I mean anybody who disputed Christians not being for the death penalty for people who have 100% commited cold blooded murder are wrong. Its in 4th grade english, just read it. and no, it can;t be interpreted any other way, beause he says it 2x and refers directly to the 10 commandments in the word law. its so clear, its deafening.

anyway, so much for your peace sells theory. Looks like killing is neccesary to anyone who kills somebody in cold blood. Too bad the guy in the bible, in the parable of tenants, the son of the land owner was not smart and could not "talk his way out of it peacefully huh?" That woudl have supported your theory.

illogical arguments. now you know why people are for the death penalty. Aside from any religion, true or false, its just COMMON SENSE to kill somebody who murders another person. because if you don't kill them, they could do it again. I guess we need a religion to define it, common sense isn't working.
 
My last question in this thread got lost in a storm of posts, so I'll post it again... I can't think of a counter argument to this yet. :)

Originally posted by DarkHand
It isn't culture, it is brainwashing.

Well most all religion is brainwashing :) , but legacy holdovers from an earlier time where the country was mostly one religion aren't... Most people don't go and try to wipe out buddist proverbs, or ban fortune cookies, or have the nazis removed from history books, or try to destroy anything they don't like or don't believe in. I can't figure out why people can accept most anything, but go apeshit when any kind of religion gets mentioned. I don't like Coca Cola, but I don't go around pulling down their billboards and trying to have the company disbanded.

Coca Cola will rot your teeth, give you diabetes, and ruin your health in general. But hey, if people want to drink it, and look at their ads, fine by me. Dosen't hurt me. Same with religion. If people want to believe in god and give churches their hard earned money and waste their Sundays, it dosen't hurt me. If one truly dosen't believe in god, why should religious 'advertisements' be treated any differently than the Coca Cola ads?
 
Originally posted by Frankie P.@Jun 18 2004, 01:52 AM
Yet, evolution is ok because it has been proven? I am sorry but there is no proof that I used to be a fucking fish, so teaching evolution is a violation of the constitution.

There's quite a bit of proof into evolution. The 'child of Tong' I believe is what it's called is one of the biggest pieces of proof there is. The Big Bang... well can you prove how the universe was made?

In order for me to believe in your religion, I want you to show me the Ark of the Covenant and Noah's Ark. Oh, while you're at it... part the Red Sea for me, will ya?
 
Originally posted by DarkHand+Jun 22 2004, 06:49 PM-->
My last question in this thread got lost in a storm of posts, so I'll post it again... I can't think of a counter argument to this yet. :)

DarkHand
It isn't culture, it is brainwashing.

Well most all religion is brainwashing :) , but legacy holdovers from an earlier time where the country was mostly one religion aren't... Most people don't go and try to wipe out buddist proverbs, or ban fortune cookies, or have the nazis removed from history books, or try to destroy anything they don't like or don't believe in. I can't figure out why people can accept most anything, but go apeshit when any kind of religion gets mentioned. I don't like Coca Cola, but I don't go around pulling down their billboards and trying to have the company disbanded.

Coca Cola will rot your teeth, give you diabetes, and ruin your health in general. But hey, if people want to drink it, and look at their ads, fine by me. Dosen't hurt me. Same with religion. If people want to believe in god and give churches their hard earned money and waste their Sundays, it dosen't hurt me. If one truly dosen't believe in god, why should religious 'advertisements' be treated any differently than the Coca Cola ads?

That's easy. I don't see the government sponsoring Coca-Cola. If I want to buy a coke, I go and drop a buck and pick me up one. If I don't want to, then I don't. However, when the government sponsors a religion, they drop taxpayer money into it. Money that taxpayers MUST pay. Your money... my money. It's like paying to keep Coca-Cola in business even though you don't like their products. You don't have a choice because you're obligated to pay those taxes.

Funny you mention things like ripping down billboards and whatnot. I remember when a chap by the name of Marilyn Manson held a concert in my hometown. Do you know how many Christians flocked to keep people out of that concert? Do you know that they protested and went fuckin nuts for hours on end? How about when the Ten Commandments were removed from wherever they were... Alabama? You would have thought the world was going to end! People crying, bowing before a carved stone block like it was the center of the universe.

To them, that's perfectly fine... They can do their best to stop anything THEY don't like, but OHHHHH NO, take away mention of their God and it's immoral... wrong... those evil atheists are to blame!

The only reason that gay marriage has received flak is because of Christianity. "It's wrong!!! Abomination! The world will come to an end!!!" Okay, little history lesson ya Bible thumpers. Remember a little thing called Loving vs Virginia? Let me give you a nice quote:

" Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

That's right ladies and gentlemen. Almighty God said that interracial marriages are WRONG. Christians were up in arms screaming "It's wrong! Abomination! The world will come to and end!"

Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
 
I remember when a chap by the name of Marilyn Manson held a concert in my hometown. Do you know how many Christians flocked to keep people out of that concert? Do you know that they protested and went fuckin nuts for hours on end?


Arguing that Christians are not even allowed to protest is getting carried away don't you think. It is ok for workers to strike/protest against a Union, but if it is Christian it is wrong? Can you see where I am getting at where more harm is being done to Christians than they are doing to you. Everything that a non-religious person is ok, but the second they say they that is is Christian it is so offensive to you.

As for your gay marriage, I honestly am neutral on the issue, I wouldn't encourage it by any means, but if they want to get married, it is their poragative(SP?) However, where I do have a problem is when a gay couple adopts children. Gays, for the most part, advocate their extreme differences, yet want equal rights it makes no sense. Frankly the reason I believe that gays should not have children is nature. You can use you THEORY of EVOLUTION, and find that if we were all gay as turtles or whatever we would have all died. God and/or nature never intended for two men to have offspring, so why should it change now?

Christians did start the Crusades, but you can not compare that to modern day Christianity, we do not go around killing people because of their beliefs. We may try to spread the word of God, but killing is a big difference. As for Import Builders, I have agreed with him up until the quote that Chrisitans approve of the death penalty, I do, but to say that all do is incorrect. If anything, you can use the eye for an eye example, if someone pokes you in the eye should you do the same. No, they should just be punished the proper way. I guess I somewhat do agree with you, but you worded it very "harsh." I look at it like this, if someone rapes a child or woman, they should have the exact same punishment do unto them, IMO.
 
You know what the problem with the First Amendment is? Everyone can use it. It's all about common courtesy. The religious cry that the other aren't respecting their rights and are forcing thier beliefs on them, and the atheist do the same, whatever, that's never going to change.

But religion DOES NOT belong in something that is forced upon a nations children.
 
Originally posted by DarkHand@Jun 22 2004, 06:49 PM
I can't think of a counter argument to this yet. :)

That's easy. I don't see the government sponsoring Coca-Cola.


Ah ha, I didn't think of that. :)

But the government sponsors tons of things that not everyone agrees with. We almost definately won't have social security funding by the time we're old enough to use it, yet we still pay for it. On a corner near me right off the highway, there was a piece of wooded land that was forest preserve, where I would walk my dog. 2 years ago, the state approved removing the section from the forest preserve so it could be cut down to build a Walgreens. The government sponsors NASA, yet I'm sure there are plenty of people who truly believe we're going to contact an alien race who will kill us all. Just because the government sponsors something dosen't mean everyone's going to like it. I don't exactly believe in the 'In God we trust' on our money either, but I have no intention of trying to have it removed, or anything.
The people protesting the concert, while perfectly in their right to do so, were just as dumb as the people protesting the pledge thing.


To them, that's perfectly fine... They can do their best to stop anything THEY don't like, but OHHHHH NO, take away mention of their God and it's immoral... wrong... those evil atheists are to blame!


You can spin that explanation to anyone's view:

"To them, that's perfectly fine... They can do their best to stop anything THEY don't like, but OHHHHH NO, mention god in the pledge and it's immoral... wrong... those evil christians are to blame!"

:D
 
Originally posted by DarkHand@Jun 23 2004, 02:17 PM
To them, that's perfectly fine... They can do their best to stop anything THEY don't like, but OHHHHH NO, take away mention of their God and it's immoral... wrong... those evil atheists are to blame!


You can spin that explanation to anyone's view:

"To them, that's perfectly fine... They can do their best to stop anything THEY don't like, but OHHHHH NO, mention god in the pledge and it's immoral... wrong... those evil christians are to blame!"

:D

That's my point, but no matter who it is, they have their view, so you remove it, and they can't really bitch because they can still say it if they want and continue to preach and believe whatever, but if it stays, than you are infringing on someone elses rights. Who is right? both, niether, fuck it, fuck em both and remove the pledge all together.
 
Originally posted by 92b16vx@Jun 23 2004, 07:37 AM
Who is right? both, niether, fuck it, fuck em both

THAT's the response I've been looking for. :D It's a circular argument, that will never be resolved. We should just forget about it. :D
 
Originally posted by Import Builders@Jun 18 2004, 07:02 PM
Guy, seriously, your arguments are so illogical, and nonsensicle. I really don;t know how you do not see it.

Your arguing there is a peacefull way out of every situation.
1) then you make an argument the USA "provoked" an attack on pearl harbor when it was attemping to make a PEACEFUL RESOLUTION TO JAPANS AGRESSION!! Thats what embargo's are man! PEACEFUL! Nobody dies. The USA was making peaceful dealings to deal with japan, and then Japan attacks us, kills a few thousand people and you say we provoked it? Man, I thought you just said that there is a peacefull way out of every situation? How come Japan didn;t know this, we WERE dealing with them peacefully man! the USA was promoting PEACE through talks, and it did nothing! Don;t you remember, just weeks before the attack, Japan flew its people to the USA to have peace talks? You make no sense. the USA wa actually doing what you say was right! Talking peace. Problem was, the other side doesn;t care and killed us anyway.
2) "Dont do things that will unreasonably piss people off" Your refering to radical islam. Let me educate you, real quick. I am not a muslim, and I am a Christian American. BY This I am pissing them off. THEY HATE ME. According to you, the ONLY way to not piss them off is to become a muslim and join them, because if you don't radical islam wants you dead. Your making 0 sense, again by your statements. Do you realize that? Seriously? Don;t you realize its IMPOSSIBLE to take every side of every issue so that you DON'T PISS ANYONE OFF?
3) Guy, did you know, that YOU, yourself are pissing off people right now in the middle east just things you believe? Just the FACT your an American is worthy of your death, according to some radicals. So, according to your philosophy, your only option is to join the terrorists, and leave the USA. Its illogical.
4) the final flaw in your argument is that your not taking into consideration, the people your trying not to piss off, are the only ones that want you dead! If you disagree with me, I say GREAT, lets discuss it, your a free man! You disagree with the terrorists, they say "when can I capture you and cut off your head". Well, they proved again yesterday in saudi Arabia, you just have to be an American, for your head to be gone.

What will it take to change your mind, seriously, I have proven your theories are false beyond a reasonable doubt, not only false, illogical. I don;t understand why you cannot see the above 4 points? I am trying to help you, this is important for the future of your kids, and theirs. I think Bush said it best:

"we are not trying to negotiate with terrorists, we are trying to vanquish them"

Well said, lets get to it. Bush understands whats at stake. I don;t think you want bombs going off at the mall when your shopping and the war coming here. Its easy to talk about what the right things to do would be, until its happening to you. For you to see the truth about what to do, you have to put yourself, and your family into the sitations. Imagine your whole family was on one of those planes that flew into a building. Does that matter that they were not there or were there? Are you going to blame Bush, or whoever and do nothing to solve the problem so that never happens again? There is nobody to talk to, negotiate with, they want us dead, no matter what. That alone defeats your mindset. One day you will understand. You got your whole life, I hope. there is a time when you need to take a stand on terrorists, and have them all rounded up. Better sooner than later. Its a rough time in our lives, but our kids will benifit.

much respect,

sincerely

Jeff

this post seems back from the dead, so i guess ill respond.
1. A total economic embargo is an aggressive action. You need to understand that japan was ushering itself into being an industreal nation (i think this was taisho era). America was supplying japan with the raw materials it needed to establish itself as an industreal power. But when you leave a country high and dry like the US did, you have to know they are going to get their materials from somewhere. You also need to understand that this was the golden age of imperialism and it was accepted at the time. But if japan were to pursue holdings outside of its own nation it would interfere with America's imperialist adgenda (namely the philipines). So they did what they could. Im not saying that what they did wasn't a mistake (because in retrospect it has been something of a boon) but im trying to show you that considering the path Japan was on, war was the inevitable result of an aggressive action like a total embargo of a nation who was dependant upon you.
2,3&4. Yes as it stands it is unavoidable that fundamentalist muslims (and well... fundamentalist christians as well) would like to see me dead. But you need to understand that this hatred is not there for no reason at all, and there are really two main reasons for their position towards Americans. Initially christians have been attacking Muslims for hundreds of years. They could not deal with the fact that people of darker skin and essentially the same religion were occupying their holy land. Years of war (unprovoked if you ask me) and slaughter has inbred a sense of hatred towards christians of all positions. Americans professing our nation to be christian and of christian values certainly doesnt help us push our image away from the earlier christian raiders. The second reason is America's involvement with Israel and Jewish people in that area. An effort which America was a part of created Isreal after WWII with no real reason. They imposed a Jewish state in the midst of a Muslim area, against the will of its inhabitants. Beyond that we have supplied weapons and funding to terrorist jews who kill muslims because they dont like them in the land where their state was imposed. Now what am i getting at with all of this? Well, it pretty much goes with my point of not pissing off people who are willing to blow themselves to shit. We had no reason to impose a jewish state, and no reason to support it. Those actions (especially supplying them with money and weapons) can be seen as a direct attack on Islam. Of course its too late now, but a step in the right direction with muslims would be to denounce the actions of isreal and cut our ties with them.

It really seems that you need to look a little beyond the propaganda you are being fed.

Are you going to blame Bush, or whoever and do nothing to solve the problem so that never happens again?

yes i am going to blame bush, and every other American president that has supported actions that lead up to this. I will primarially blame bush because of the neglegance of his administration. Apperantly multiple warnings from multiple officials were not enough for him to take this threat seriously, and we all suffered for it. The point of all this is simple, prevention. Dont support terrorism in any form. Break ties with Israel as we would with any terrorist nation. dont give weapons to terrorist nations to be used against us later. Its pretty simple really. Now there is a distinction between self defense and war. I am not such an ethically correct person that i could practice nonviolence against someone who is attacking me, it is a weakness of mine. But I'm also not going to go shooting random people because perhaps there is a chance that they may want to inflict harm on me and mine at a later date.

Ill reiterate my solution for the deal. Cut ties with isreal and denounce their actions. Work on mending relations with islamic nations. Send the needy ones aid, invest in them recieving education and medical care. The point of all that would be to show them that we do not hate islam (which is what they think, and rightfully so, now). Fundamentialst factions of religions will usually form and grow when there is some sort of push against the it. Instead of spending money on bombs to blow up the nations give them food, medical assistance, and education so they dont have only the radical form of their religion to fall back on. Of course that wont take care of all of the factions of radical islam, but when the governments realize that America is there to help them perhaps they would be more willing to do something against the fundamentalists internally.
 
you know, i did a bit of research on christians and the death penalty and what ive found out is that is that Christianst are not only for the death penalty, they are really for the death penalty. But when you say:
Looks like killing is neccesary to anyone who kills somebody in cold blood.
you are right, but there is so much more that you people like to kill for. for instance:
for following another religion: Exodus 22:20
for proselytizing: Deuteronomy 13:1-10
for communicating with the dead: Leviticus 20:27 (sorry john edwards. you gotta go)
for sexual activity before marriage: Deuteronomy 22:13-21 (only females get that though)
for cursing parents: Exodus 21:17
for stubbornness and rebellion: Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (im in trouble!)
for working on Saturday: Exodus 35:2
for accidentally killing a pregnant woman: Exodus 21:22-23
Sexual activity with a woman who is menstruating: Leviticus 20:18
Persons teaching another religion: Deuteronomy 13:1-11
A prophet whose prophecy does not come true: Deuteronomy 18:22 (goodbye "prophets" of mormonism)
for being excessively curious: In Genesis 19:17
and finally:
not being circumsized: Genesis 17:14
Of course if you are going to be a Christian and use what the bible as your justificaiton for executing murderers, you have to apply the rest of these executable offenses as well.

illogical arguments. now you know why people are for the death penalty. Aside from any religion, true or false, its just COMMON SENSE to kill somebody who murders another person. because if you don't kill them, they could do it again. I guess we need a religion to define it, common sense isn't working.

Perhaps it is common sense for a narrowminded person. But what you fail to see are the implications of a murdering a "murderer". What of all of these instances where a man has been killed, and later proven innocent? Does that mean that everyone who was a party to this man's murder will be killed themselves? What you are presenting is a false dichotomy, it is not an "either or" situation. You are neglecting to mention locking a person up, or rehabilitation. At least if you lock a person up and later find out they were inncent of their crime they can be released.
 
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Actually, it's the car my old VX motor went to, so it isn't 100% stock.


That is all.
 
Originally posted by Frankie P.@Jun 23 2004, 02:50 AM
Arguing that Christians are not even allowed to protest is getting carried away don't you think. It is ok for workers to strike/protest against a Union, but if it is Christian it is wrong? Can you see where I am getting at where more harm is being done to Christians than they are doing to you. Everything that a non-religious person is ok, but the second they say they that is is Christian it is so offensive to you.

As for your gay marriage, I honestly am neutral on the issue, I wouldn't encourage it by any means, but if they want to get married, it is their poragative(SP?) However, where I do have a problem is when a gay couple adopts children. Gays, for the most part, advocate their extreme differences, yet want equal rights it makes no sense. Frankly the reason I believe that gays should not have children is nature. You can use you THEORY of EVOLUTION, and find that if we were all gay as turtles or whatever we would have all died. God and/or nature never intended for two men to have offspring, so why should it change now?

Christians did start the Crusades, but you can not compare that to modern day Christianity, we do not go around killing people because of their beliefs. We may try to spread the word of God, but killing is a big difference. As for Import Builders, I have agreed with him up until the quote that Chrisitans approve of the death penalty, I do, but to say that all do is incorrect. If anything, you can use the eye for an eye example, if someone pokes you in the eye should you do the same. No, they should just be punished the proper way. I guess I somewhat do agree with you, but you worded it very "harsh." I look at it like this, if someone rapes a child or woman, they should have the exact same punishment do unto them, IMO.

Never said they weren't allowed to protest. Anyone can protest anything they wish. Nor did I say that anything Christian is offensive.

Let's work on this first:

"where more harm is being done to Christians than is being done to you."

I don't remember doing anything to Christians to make them keep me out of a concert. Did my friends and I form a human chain around their church, keeping them from their Sunday worship?

"You can use you THEORY of EVOLUTION, and find that if we were all gay as turtles or whatever we would have all died. God and/or nature never intended for two men to have offspring, so why should it change now?"

I love how you keep shooting down Evolution. Lemme guess... if I sail too far I'll fall off the edge of the world and be eaten by dragons, right? You say that gays advocate their extreme differences yet want equal rights. Same for Christians. Having their own beliefs on how the universe was created... your THEORY OF CREATIONISM, having their own beliefs on what is right and wrong. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. To me, YOUR views are extreme. But to another Christian, they're normal.

One thing Christians have to learn is to be more accepting.

Everything changes. Accept it or be left behind.
 
yes i am going to blame bush, and every other American president that has supported actions that lead up to this. I will primarially blame bush because of the neglegance of his administration. Apperantly multiple warnings from multiple officials were not enough for him to take this threat seriously, and we all suffered for it. The point of all this is simple, prevention. Dont support terrorism in any form. Break ties with Israel as we would with any terrorist nation. dont give weapons to terrorist nations to be used against us later. Its pretty simple really. Now there is a distinction between self defense and war. I am not such an ethically correct person that i could practice nonviolence against someone who is attacking me, it is a weakness of mine. But I'm also not going to go shooting random people because perhaps there is a chance that they may want to inflict harm on me and mine at a later date.

Ill reiterate my solution for the deal. Cut ties with isreal and denounce their actions. Work on mending relations with islamic nations. Send the needy ones aid, invest in them recieving education and medical care. The point of all that would be to show them that we do not hate islam (which is what they think, and rightfully so, now). Fundamentialst factions of religions will usually form and grow when there is some sort of push against the it. Instead of spending money on bombs to blow up the nations give them food, medical assistance, and education so they dont have only the radical form of their religion to fall back on. Of course that wont take care of all of the factions of radical islam, but when the governments realize that America is there to help them perhaps they would be more willing to do something against the fundamentalists internally.


This make no sense to me guy. I mean, you would cut off all ties with our allies in that part of the nation, then make allies with our former enemies? If anything, it seems to me that that is what Bush is trying to do. He is completely rebuilding a country in need. You can say that he is doing it for oil or whatever reason, but he is adding better schools and school supplies, hospitals, healthcare, giving woman much more equal rights. How else would you have dealt with a country that could care less if we lost our ties with Israel, then go over there and tell Sadam "Hey buddy, you a nice guy, lets be friends. I don't care if you rape woman in rape rooms, kill children, care nothing about your own people. I still like you and you would be a great ally."

Also as I stated before, you can not compare the Crusade Christians to the modern day christians. Every race, creed, country, religion, I'm sure, has done something in the past that they have been ashamed. To make the argument of christianities wronful past would be like comparing todays Americans to keep slavery. I am not going to say that there are not Americans or Christians that support those thoughts but to compare all to that very little sect, is very unfair.

Never said they weren't allowed to protest. Anyone can protest anything they wish. Nor did I say that anything Christian is offensive.

Let's work on this first:

"where more harm is being done to Christians than is being done to you."

I don't remember doing anything to Christians to make them keep me out of a concert. Did my friends and I form a human chain around their church, keeping them from their Sunday worship?

"You can use you THEORY of EVOLUTION, and find that if we were all gay as turtles or whatever we would have all died. God and/or nature never intended for two men to have offspring, so why should it change now?"

I love how you keep shooting down Evolution. Lemme guess... if I sail too far I'll fall off the edge of the world and be eaten by dragons, right? You say that gays advocate their extreme differences yet want equal rights. Same for Christians. Having their own beliefs on how the universe was created... your THEORY OF CREATIONISM, having their own beliefs on what is right and wrong. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. To me, YOUR views are extreme. But to another Christian, they're normal.

One thing Christians have to learn is to be more accepting.

Everything changes. Accept it or be left behind.


So, Christians are allowed to protest, but if it involves something you are involved in it immedietly turns to those evil Christians. I especially love it when you said that I keep shooting down evolution, yet you are doing the same exact thing to Christians, by saying that they themselves are wrong. We are shooting down each other beliefs, so don't be offended if I am telling you that I think it is absolutely insane that I came from a fish, yet after millions of years, we still haven't found another race of being. So we are the first planet ever created, and there isn't another race out there more advanced. Also I am a believer in adaption, but not evolution, there is a sect of Christianity that believes in what I do. What I mean by adaption is God created one bird, snake, horse... etc. But they adapted to their surrondings from a pigeon to a seagull to a parrot. Or for a snake they went from a boa to a cobra. They adapted/evolve to their surrondings, but they never changed from a bird.

One final point I would like to make is you also stated that Christians need to be more understanding, and if you read my posts you can tell that I am a very liberal Christian, yet I am still not understanding. Well, if a Christian was as understanding as you would want them to be, would that really make them a christian?
 
ENOUGH OF THIS CIRCULAR ARGUMENT
 
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