Rally against war in Iraq

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Ignorant statement or not - that's my personal belief. Untill I am shown otherwise with unequivocal proof, that is what I will believe.
 
Originally posted by pissedoffsol+Sep 26 2005, 04:31 PM-->
@Sep 26 2005, 05:07 PM
Ode to the WMD,
You are all bitches. 
[post=560636]Quoted post[/post]​



You are an idiot.


link to back it up: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html
[post=560650]Quoted post[/post]​



If you come forth to beat me down (You are an idiot), without reading and fully comprehending everything I posted to - Than yes, you are my bitch. Now put this tutu on.


SCHNELL
 
Also, part 2 will be the actual news events of soldiers, US and Coalition, being attacked with chemical agents DURING the occupation of Iraq. I am right now building my own text arsenal. Problem is finding just the right sources. (Newsmax is decidedly biased, and I'll only use a biased source if they point out my point, by attempting to counter-argue my point (IE: The New York Times))

Fox news will be used as a source.

In a short statement: Yes, there were admittedly NO WMD. I remember this. During a UN Security Council meeting, Colin Powell himself said "No Weapons of Mass Destruction have been found". Why he did that I won't know. Prolly because according to defined terms, no weapons were found ready to be handed over. But also, on March 13th, 2005, The New York Times ran an article (Which requires a login to get to now) that states that Baghdad armories were looted, and missing were warheads, SARS viles and Mustard Gas.. Which are clearly WMD). Also, and I would like back-up of this from some of our Soldiers on this forum: Were you involved in any non-practice use of your chemical agent gear? Was anyone actually attacked that required the use and deployment of Chemical gear ?

God, I remember this 3 times from the war, but those sources are difficult to search for the headlines.

Anyway. This thread is about the War Protest. And I wanted to see the noobs come in and go toe-to-toe with the Liberal Finger Pointing Squad.

Round 2: FIGHT !
 
I dunno. Who are you referring to? That 'According to Aaron' guy? Well, 'According to Battle Pope', Aaron bugged the hell out.
 
Originally posted by Celerity@Sep 26 2005, 04:07 PM
Ode to the WMD,

By Steven Earl, AKA Celerity.

Attention! You are all bitches. And, while it's not fair of me to say this, I don't expect ANY OF YOU to come back at me until you're done reading the following. The following exerpts are from real sources, with the URL in plain site. These are results of Gas Attacks and WMD news makers since 2003. Yes, 2003. Not the 1988 Iran / Iraq war. This is all recent shit.

A while back there were challenges to back up statements with URL sources. While I never wanted to invest the 2 hours time doing so, I decided I was bored enough to do it today. More will follow.

Iraq HAD and may even continue to HAVE Chemical agents, delivery systems, and "weapons of mass destruction", including designs on Nuclear weapons. Stay tuned for part 2 - Where I point out to you specifically and exactly when and where Saddam Hussein has threatened to use it's weapons on the US and it's european allies. Without further adieu: Choke on this :)
[post=560636]Quoted post[/post]​


1. Fact: the United States government sold Saddam ALL of his chemical munitions, including Anthrax, and instructed and trained his scientists on their usage back in the 1980s during the Reagan administration. Donald Rumsfeld, recently of the Bush administration, gladhanded the proceedings.


So are you saying that it's okay to sell a man evil weapons, teach him how to use them, and shake his hand with a smile, but then a few years later, invade his country, drop bombs on the heavily populated cities of that country, kill tens of thousands of unarmed civilians "accidentally" in the process, disrupt their supply of clean water and electricity, inadvertently import terrorism to the country from Syria, Jordan, and Iran, overthrow his administration and place him under arrest, and attempt futilely to replace the former government with one to your own liking, because you feel that he just might USE all those chemical munitions that you sold him in the first place?

There is no argument. Never was. Just some people not willing to give up their blind support for their president.

Our government manufactured and sold him the goddamn chemical weapons, so where does that put our beloved Republican leaders at exactly? I never once heard George W Bush ever EVER chastise Reagan or his father, George HW Bush, Reagan's VP for 8 years, for selling Saddam these supposedly EVIL chemical and biological weapons. NEVER ONCE. Not one time did he ever acknowledge that we were just as evil as Saddam for selling him the stuff in the first place.

And impeaching Bush wouldn't change anything anyway. Clinton walked away from that shit and had a cigar.
 
Originally posted by confusatron+Sep 26 2005, 06:30 PM-->
@Sep 26 2005, 04:07 PM
Oh, you picked the wrong sonuvabitch :)
[post=560636]Quoted post[/post]​


1. Fact: the United States government sold Saddam ALL of his chemical munitions, including Anthrax, and instructed and trained his scientists on their usage back in the 1980s during the Reagan administration. Donald Rumsfeld, recently of the Bush administration, gladhanded the proceedings.


Yes, during the Iran-Iraq war, We were enemies with Iran and supported their enemies. Saddam was a friend to us. He used our chemicals in the 1988 kurdish attacks that left thousands dead. Donald Rumsfeld was in the position to deliver those goods. We continue to do this today, supplying Israel with the equipment to destroy Palestine. And we continue to deal with Spain, who recently (This week) sold chemicals to Venezuela. And to Britain who was just caught, red handed, sending troops to kill Iraqi police. Yes, we sold them the chemicals. Things changed, and Saddam used them in a horrible way. We know what we sold him, and by all counts he should still have it around (We sold him a LOT of shit, that Blix wasn't able to find).

So are you saying (This is where the amateur arguer attempts to put words into my mouth, a tactic that never worked on me) that it's okay to sell a man evil weapons, teach him how to use them, and shake his hand with a smile, but then a few years later, invade his country,

Yup. He did bad things with them.
drop bombs on the heavily populated cities of that country,

Now you're making it sound like we targetted civilians or we targetted cities BECAUSE of their civilian population. This isn't sensible. Our weapons are top-notch, and are too expensive to piss away like that. Also, Saddam HID IN the populated areas, using the people as a political shield. We didn't find him in a cave in the countryside.
kill tens of thousands of unarmed civilians "accidentally" in the process,

Now you're making it up on the go. At what point did we accidentally kill tens of thousands of unarmed citizens ? I don't recall this. Was this Operation Kill the Harmless Civilians? Was it Operation Enduring Mistakes? OR was this... perhaps, a figment of your imagination?

disrupt their supply of clean water and electricity, 

We GAVE them this. We setup high quality water and electricity facilities right off the bat. We brought supplies to remote villages better than any domestic Iraqi program or even clandestine project EVER has. EVER, as in, the past 2500 years.

inadvertently import terrorism to the country from Syria, Jordan, and Iran,

Nope, Terrorism started there. Don't leave out Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Cyprus or Libya. All of whom have had terrorist jihadist training camps since the late 1800s. (Yeah, remember that ? The US fighting the Muslim Hordes at the Halls of Montezuma... To the shores of Tripoli? Thank a Marine.

overthrow his administration and place him under arrest, and attempt futilely to replace the former government with one to your own liking,


Yup, Worked with Japan. Instead of practicing Colonialism, We actually stood back and gave them back their country to grow to a democratic trade powerhouse that it is today.

because you feel that he just might USE all those chemical munitions that you sold him in the first place?

What munitions? I thought the UN said there WERE no munitions? Make up your mind.

Our government manufactured and sold him the goddamn chemical weapons, so where does that put our beloved Republican leaders at exactly?  I never once heard George W Bush ever EVER chastise Reagan or his father, George HW Bush, Reagan's VP for 8 years, for selling Saddam these supposedly EVIL chemical and biological weapons.  NEVER ONCE.  Not one time did he ever acknowledge that we were just as evil as Saddam for selling him the stuff in the first place.

Nope, because back then - They did what they felt was right. It turned out to be Wrong. Lets go have Tea with Milosevik and talk about Clinton - And our response to Milosevik (You wanna talk about a MAJOR international fuck up?) We are NOT as Evil as Saddam, we never were, and I don't see us ever becoming. In our global war victories, our hand has been fair and reasonable. We allowed our enemies (For the first time in WORLD HUMAN HISTORY) to rebuild and remain free. And yes, There is little quick profit to be made there - But when it's all done, we are better in the long run for doing so.


And THAT is what I stand behind.
 
Originally posted by Celerity@Sep 26 2005, 06:51 PM
And yes, There is little quick profit to be made there - But when it's all done, we are better in the long run for doing so.
[post=560714]Quoted post[/post]​


A twelve digit profit isn't exactly little, and since they are still sticking it to us, it aint quick either.
 
Are you even reading the same thread ? No republican is "bashing" anyone, No one is saying that they can't make statements or argue for a point they believe in, and no one is calling anyone un-american.


So, I uh... Think you're delusional :)


Smile dammit, you take this thread WAY too seriously. No one will EVER convince anyone otherwise on a Honda Forum on the internet. Relax, it's nothing personal.
 
Originally posted by Sabz5150+Sep 26 2005, 07:00 PM-->
@Sep 26 2005, 06:51 PM
And yes, There is little quick profit to be made there - But when it's all done, we are better in the long run for doing so.
[post=560714]Quoted post[/post]​


A twelve digit profit isn't exactly little, and since they are still sticking it to us, it aint quick either.
[post=560719]Quoted post[/post]​


Yes, my phrasing was kinda vague. What I meant to say is:

When you choose to elevate a defeated country, rather than colonize it, you face little profit. (in other words, colonizing is an immediate pay-off, like the English with Zimbabwe) but we choose a method "(has) little quick profit".
 
1. Fact: the United States government sold Saddam ALL of his chemical munitions, including Anthrax, and instructed and trained his scientists on their usage back in the 1980s during the Reagan administration. Donald Rumsfeld, recently of the Bush administration, gladhanded the proceedings.

I SCREWED UP THE QUOTE FUNCTION, SO I JUST USED SOME FORMATTING, SORRY.
My responses are Bold, Celerity's are Italicized.

Quote, Celerity: Yes, during the Iran-Iraq war, We were enemies with Iran and supported their enemies. Saddam was a friend to us. He used our chemicals in the 1988 kurdish attacks that left thousands dead. Donald Rumsfeld was in the position to deliver those goods. We continue to do this today, supplying Israel with the equipment to destroy Palestine. And we continue to deal with Spain, who recently (This week) sold chemicals to Venezuela. And to Britain who was just caught, red handed, sending troops to kill Iraqi police. Yes, we sold them the chemicals. Things changed, and Saddam used them in a horrible way.

My response: That's what chemical weapons are designed for. To do horrible things to people. So yeah, we knew he was buying them with the intent of using them to do horrible things. Get it? If enemies change over the years, and enemies become friends, friends enemies, then who is really the bad guy? Who is it okay to use these weapons on today, if that group may or may not be our enemy ten years from now? See what I'm getting at? We knew what the weapons were for, and we sold them with no remorse.

We know what we sold him, and by all counts he should still have it around (We sold him a LOT of shit, that Blix wasn't able to find).

Not if he got rid of the shit. And seeing as how we never found any of it after the invasion, it's somewhat safe to assume it was gone. But say we had found it, could we justify attacking him, for possessing the chemical and biological weapons that we sold to him? I sell you a bag of weed, then I arrest you for possession?

So are you saying (This is where the amateur arguer attempts to put words into my mouth, a tactic that never worked on me) that it's okay to sell a man evil weapons, teach him how to use them, and shake his hand with a smile, but then a few years later, invade his country,

Yup. He did bad things with them.

drop bombs on the heavily populated cities of that country

Now you're making it sound like we targetted civilians or we targetted cities BECAUSE of their civilian population.


The first phase of the Iraq invasion was called "Operation Shock and Awe." It was so named because the plan was to bomb the hell out of the major cities of Baghdad, Basra, and Fallujah, in order to instill Saddam's military forces with a feeling of overpowering fear and awe. It was reasoned that the military would subsequently lay down its arms upon the arrival of our ground forces, and surrender. If you don't remember "Operation Shock and Awe," google it. It was all over the tv news for a couple weeks before the invasion.


This isn't sensible. Our weapons are top-notch, and are too expensive to piss away like that.


Apparently you weren't watching the same TV news (especially the cheerleader channels of Fox News and CNN) that were broadcasting a constant stream of footage from the bombing of the city of Baghdad. I don't know how you missed that one.

Also, Saddam HID IN the populated areas, using the people as a political shield. We didn't find him in a cave in the countryside.

Actually we did. :) Saddam was found in a hole in the ground underneath a small FARM BUILDING in the outskirts of Tikrit, a small city in the northern part of Iraq (if my geography is slightly off, who cares, he was still hiding under a farm building in the middle of nowhere.) So yeah. What was your next point, let's see here. This is fun. :D

"kill tens of thousands of unarmed civilians 'accidentally' in the process,
Now you're making it up on the go. At what point did we accidentally kill tens of thousands of unarmed citizens ? I don't recall this. Was this Operation Kill the Harmless Civilians? Was it Operation Enduring Mistakes? OR was this... perhaps, a figment of your imagination?

Yeah, again, apparently you weren't watching the same invasion as the rest of the world. It was all over television and the newspapers. Much of the destruction unleashed upon the civilian population of Iraq was recorded on video. Here's the problem though. Bush's commander in charge of the invasion (Richard Meyers? I can't remember his name at the moment) said something like "We don't do bodycounts," in reference to civilian casualties. The Red Cross however, estimated the dead in excess of ten thousand Iraqis. If memory serves that was the count as of sometime last year. Look it up, you'll find that one too. I'm too goddamn tired tonite to care.

"disrupt their supply of clean water and electricity"
We GAVE them this. We setup high quality water and electricity facilities right off the bat. We brought supplies to remote villages better than any domestic Iraqi program or even clandestine project EVER has. EVER, as in, the past 2500 years.

Now you're hallucinating. You're just saying the exact opposite of what happened.

"inadvertently import terrorism to the country from Syria, Jordan, and Iran,"
Nope, Terrorism started there. Don't leave out Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Cyprus or Libya. All of whom have had terrorist jihadist training camps since the late 1800s. (Yeah, remember that ? The US fighting the Muslim Hordes at the Halls of Montezuma... To the shores of Tripoli? Thank a Marine.

No. There were no weekly suicide and car bombings in Baghdad, Fallujah, Basra, or any of Iraq's other major cities prior to our occupation. Aside from the oppression of Saddam's secret police and his civil war with the muslims in northern Iraq, the people of Iraq did not have "Worry about getting blown to bits by suicide bomb" on their list of daily worries.

"overthrow his administration and place him under arrest, and attempt futilely to replace the former government with one to your own liking,"

Yup, Worked with Japan. Instead of practicing Colonialism, We actually stood back and gave them back their country to grow to a democratic trade powerhouse that it is today.

Hmm....doesn't seem to be working as well in Iraq now is it? Didn't work in Vietnam either, did it? Or Korea.



"because you feel that he just might USE all those chemical munitions that you sold him in the first place?"

What munitions? I thought the UN said there WERE no munitions? Make up your mind.

Nice try. Don't try and confuse what the UN found 15 years later, with what we SOLD him back in the 80s. That's pathetic man. "Well I SOLD you a BMW 15 years ago, but since I don't see that BMW in your driveway anymore....I guess I never sold it to you did I?" Doesn't work that way.

Our government manufactured and sold him the goddamn chemical weapons, so where does that put our beloved Republican leaders at exactly? I never once heard George W Bush ever EVER chastise Reagan or his father, George HW Bush, Reagan's VP for 8 years, for selling Saddam these supposedly EVIL chemical and biological weapons. NEVER ONCE. Not one time did he ever acknowledge that we were just as evil as Saddam for selling him the stuff in the first place.

Nope, because back then - They did what they felt was right. It turned out to be Wrong.

Then why can't you open your eyes and see all the lies that led up to the invasion of Iraq, and where those lies got us as a country as a result. Around 2000 dead mothers, sons, fathers, and daughters just on OUR side alone, that will never go home to their families again, because of the lies of one man and his allies. Not to mention all the Iraqi civilians that never asked to be in any war. Their only crime was living under the foot of a corrupt, evil president. Kinda like us. :) If you say you don't give a shit about Iraqi civilian deaths, then I guess there's nothing else to say about that. But if you see them as people just like you and me, add their numbers to the body count and tell me one good reason why they should have to die by the thousands in the name of lies.

We are NOT as Evil as Saddam, we never were, and I don't see us ever becoming. In our global war victories, our hand has been fair and reasonable. We allowed our enemies (For the first time in WORLD HUMAN HISTORY) to rebuild and remain free. And yes, There is little quick profit to be made there - But when it's all done, we are better in the long run for doing so.

And THAT is what I stand behind.


We as individual Americans are not as evil as Saddam. Bush...not as bad as Saddam, but that's like comparing Saddam to Hitler. Does it really make Saddam look like a great leader? No. We have done some great things as a nation over the past several hundred years. We, as a nation not individuals, have also done some horrible things over the years. It's not all black and white. Open your eyes and form an opinion based on what is happening, not on which side you like best.

By the way, I got thoroughly confused with all the goddamn quotes and so I don't know if this monstrosity is gonna come out formatted correctly or not, but here goes.
 
:whocares:

These threads piss me off. Yes this administration has gone to shit. What can we do about it? NOTHING. Just sit back and wait till george's years are up. I dont wanna read a fucking book for every goddamn post. Yes, I have an opinion on this subject. Do I want you guys to hear or know it? NO, because it's my goddamn opinion. I'm tired of every other thread being about iraq or bush.

DIE THREAD DIE.

and NO i wont reply to any flaming I get, so go ahead ...

/rant
 
I'm right and you're wrong.


This is EVERY person's opinion in EVERY political thread on this board.

If some people spent as much time doing something constructive (like getting a job) as they did arguing about politics, the unemployment rate would be even lower....like 0%.
 
But... that... kinda.. was... Your opinion.

Don't look now, but there are about 300 other topics on www.hondaswap.com that are great for reading by people who don't like topics about "Rally against the war", where discussion tends to go towards "Rally against the war".

As far as Confusatron, I'll come back to this later. Too late at night.

But here is a sneak-peak to get your juices goin:

Vietnam and Korea are completely different than what's going on here.
Shock and Awe is what seperates the first months of conflict from IwoJima, and the resulting Nuke that followed.
What is a surgical strike?
Suicide bombings

And the rest of it was pretty much "No, you're wrong" so I can't really respond to any of it.

See ya tomorrow.
 
Oh hell, I didn't know you were responding. I was talking about (And responding to) dveit's post.
 
Originally posted by Celerity@Sep 27 2005, 12:43 AM
But... that... kinda.. was... Your opinion.


Touche, you bastard. :p
 
In retrospect, I have decided instead on a new rule for arguing on Hondaswap.


Since these arguments get angry, I have found a red-headed stepchild to beat on instead. So go here and unload about your feelings on Ohio, then you'll feel refreshed to handle anything.

http://collinization.mu.nu/archives/000967.html

My posts are obviously signed "Celerity"
 
Confusatron.. you need to back some of this stuff up.

"i'm too tired, blah blah to post a link" just won't work.

Oh, and if someone is in here, and not enjoying what they are reading, please move your attention to a little black x at the upper right hand of this window. Push it.. You'll be free in no time.
 
I'm done arguing on this thread. It really is pointless to get all worked up and pissed off over differences in opinion. It really doesn't matter. Like the one guy said, can't do anything about this situation even if I/we don't like it, so why go on and on about it. I'd rather fuck around with my Honda or my house. Peace.
 
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