Ready for something you've never seen?

[patooyee]

I compete in rock crawling. (Using custom-built 4x4 buggies made strictly out of round tubing.) The trend these days in engines is moving away from the big American V8's and going to light, high HP engines with high revability. Mid-engine buggies also seem to be dominating right now. This got me to thinking about using a Honda VTec in the buggy that I am building right now. Primarily for the weight to power ratio but also for the revability and the fact that the engines turns the opposite direction from standard American engines, which would be beneficial to me for reasons that I don't really care to get into unless asked. I've heard that an H22 is what I should look for and have found one for $2500 with the tranny and axles.

My questions to you are this: Is it possible to close up and lock one of the transaxles and run a shaft from the other to a divorce-mounted transfer case? Is the H22 what everyone would reccomend for my applciation? How strong are these Honda Auto trannies? Do people ever break them? Do they use conventional torque converters?

Any other info you could think of that may be useful to me would be appreciated also. Thank you in advance.

J. J.

 

[nfn15037]

Wow, sounds like a very cool project!

As for the diff, you could weld the diff and just run one driveshaft off of it. The auto trannys are decent, but will most likley need to be rebuilt and the TQ converter upgraded, which is pretty standard IMO. I think a company called Level 10 does auto tranny upgrades for Hondas. Hope that helps!

 

[H22AdelSol]

If you do this id love to see pics!

 

[NotUrAverage_Si]

I don't know of many H22's reving all that high but the torque #'s would probably be the best.

 

[Iquark]

So, inorder to get the torque and power outputs you're going to need to match up to a V8 (minus the weight differences,) you are going to be building the crap out of this thing right? Well, in that case, you will be fine witht he auto tranny if you put equal ammount of work into it. Just find a builder like mentioned above, and tell him the specs you need and they'll get it done. With enough money, anything can happen...

Ian

 

[cycloneb18c3]

on the topic of putting honda engines in weird/not normal honda car my brother and I were thinking of running 2 H22's(or ITR's) as imboard boat engines.
that would be pretty dam funny hearing a boat with toda spec c's rippin it in the bay.

 

[patooyee]

Originally posted by Iquark@Mar 12 2004, 10:50 PM
So, inorder to get the torque and power outputs you're going to need to match up to a V8 (minus the weight differences,) you are going to be building the crap out of this thing right? Well, in that case, you will be fine witht he auto tranny if you put equal ammount of work into it. Just find a builder like mentioned above, and tell him the specs you need and they'll get it done. With enough money, anything can happen...

Ian

Well my goal isn't necessarily to match a V8. No one these days that is successful has any more than 200hp. The current V8 that I have is around 400hp and 400 ft/lbs. It can rev to about 6000 rpm but the peak numbers come in around 3500. My goal is mainly to lose overall weight of the buggy. The rigs that seem to do the best are the really light ones. The current weight MINIMUM, with driver, is 2400 lbs. I would be trying to meet this min. All the top buggies right now are still running iron blocks. Most are running V6's. Their buggies come in around 3000 lbs. with the driver. I'd be trying to make up for the power reduction (as compared to a V8) by losing weight. I don't know how much a Honda engine/tranny cost, but my chassis will weigh approximately 400 lbs, the axles will be around 600, wheels and tires about 380, t-case about 80. That leaves me a little under 1000 lbs for my fat ass and all the other misc. little crap to go in. That is not bad!

My current Chevy 350 weighs in around 500 lbs. That's before I even add in the tranny and t-case. Just in engine, I would suspect that losing 350 lbs would be possible??? I went to a local performance shop in town and lifted a bare Vtec block. It weighed less than the starter on my current engine! And the lower tranny ratio would be nice, too.

So to answer your question, no, I would hope to not have to do any work on the engine and tranny besides what I could do myself. I haven't burnt up a motor yet, but consider myself lucky in that dept. These motors have to be pretty much disposable to us. High dollar engines that you couldn't replace in a weekend are not feasable because you could burn it up in a comp and then miss the entire season trying to replace it. (Or at least that is the case with me.)

On the tranny where the transaxles meet connect, is that sealed? If so, I was thinking I could just weld the dif and modify an existing transaxle to run to my divorced t-case. Sound sound?

J. J.

 

[driver1]

Originally posted by patooyee+Mar 13 2004, 12:45 AM-->

Iquark

@Mar 12 2004, 10:50 PM
So, inorder to get the torque and power outputs you're going to need to match up to a V8 (minus the weight differences,) you are going to be building the crap out of this thing right? Well, in that case, you will be fine witht he auto tranny if you put equal ammount of work into it. Just find a builder like mentioned above, and tell him the specs you need and they'll get it done. With enough money, anything can happen...

Ian

Well my goal isn't necessarily to match a V8. No one these days that is successful has any more than 200hp. The current V8 that I have is around 400hp and 400 ft/lbs. It can rev to about 6000 rpm but the peak numbers come in around 3500. My goal is mainly to lose overall weight of the buggy. The rigs that seem to do the best are the really light ones. The current weight MINIMUM, with driver, is 2400 lbs. I would be trying to meet this min. All the top buggies right now are still running iron blocks. Most are running V6's. Their buggies come in around 3000 lbs. with the driver. I'd be trying to make up for the power reduction (as compared to a V8) by losing weight. I don't know how much a Honda engine/tranny cost, but my chassis will weigh approximately 400 lbs, the axles will be around 600, wheels and tires about 380, t-case about 80. That leaves me a little under 1000 lbs for my fat ass and all the other misc. little crap to go in. That is not bad!

My current Chevy 350 weighs in around 500 lbs. That's before I even add in the tranny and t-case. Just in engine, I would suspect that losing 350 lbs would be possible??? I went to a local performance shop in town and lifted a bare Vtec block. It weighed less than the starter on my current engine! And the lower tranny ratio would be nice, too.

So to answer your question, no, I would hope to not have to do any work on the engine and tranny besides what I could do myself. I haven't burnt up a motor yet, but consider myself lucky in that dept. These motors have to be pretty much disposable to us. High dollar engines that you couldn't replace in a weekend are not feasable because you could burn it up in a comp and then miss the entire season trying to replace it. (Or at least that is the case with me.)

On the tranny where the transaxles meet connect, is that sealed? If so, I was thinking I could just weld the dif and modify an existing transaxle to run to my divorced t-case. Sound sound?

J. J.

well the problem i think you are going to run into is not building enoguh torque at a low enugh rpm honda generally build all thier power up top. also as far as the motor being disposable, i think yuoll find they are anything but that. unless you have about 2000-2500 to just sling around everytime u blow one of them up. and also the time to wait to have another one shipped to u. also i dont know what u picked up for a abre vtec block but it was prob not the h22 that u speak of being that it is the second or third biggest of the honda 4 cyl

 

[handlebarsfsr]

your best bet would be to find an intact honda crv. those cars come with either a b20 or a k24 (the k being superior, but those are new and hard to find) and all wheel drive, so the 4wd compatable trans, t case, axles, hubs, etc are all there. then find a k20a head for the k24block, or any vtec b series head ( or preferably a full vtec longblock, like a b18c) and bolt that to the b20's trans and drivetrain.

 

[AlphaCivic]

your best bet would be to find an intact honda crv. those cars come with either a b20 or a k24 (the k being superior, but those are new and hard to find) and all wheel drive, so the 4wd compatable trans, t case, axles, hubs, etc are all there. then find a k20a head for the k24block, or any vtec b series head ( or preferably a full vtec longblock, like a b18c) and bolt that to the b20's trans and drivetrain.

I'm not sure about your k series CRVTEC idea, because i know little of k series motors, but if the hybrid is anything like the b series.... very bad idea. Now granted lsvtec and crvtec setups can be powerful monstor motors, in this guys case he isnt going to be building the motor at all. Now what do we all know about lsvtec and crvtec motors that arent built right, much less not built at all? Frankenstein. God only knows when it will blow up.

But the b18 with crv auto trans and awd drivetrain sounds like a killer Honda VTEC Buggy Monster waiting to be unleashed! Maybe you should invest into a B series Supercharger or something.... that will give you all the torque you need, plus if you blow a motor or something, you can always swap the SC to the next motor. I was thinking a JRSC for ease of swap and lots of nice instant low end power (granted JRSC not best for street hondas, but in this application it might work well)

just my 38 1/2 cents.

 

[posol]

I don't know much about rock climbing... but, i think a honda motor is a horrible choice for this application. I think its cool that you want to do something like this, but i think of rock climbing, i think low speeds, seting up, pucnhing it to make the move. If I'm wrong, disregard this whole post.

you're going to want the torque. something a honda simply doesn't have until 5k. i'd stick with the v8.
or maybe a 3.8 pontiac gtp v6?

 

[phunky.buddha]

The B20 drivetrain sucks for AWD action... don't think about using it. Looking at your posts though- I don't think you were considering it in the first place. The CRV doesn't have a true 4wd system.. it's more of a "oh, let's send 10% back there to the twig like axles because the front is slipping" kind of AWD system.

Honda automatic transmissions tend not to be too strong, but I don't know about the H22's automatic. Try to get an older one that doesn't have the weird traction control system in it- it will be much easier to wire, and you'll be able to weld the diff and run one end out to your transfer system.

Maybe you'd like to try one of the 3.0 V6 engines from the last generation Accord?

 

[nfn15037]

Originally posted by pissedoffsol@Mar 16 2004, 04:59 AM
I don't know much about rock climbing... but, i think a honda motor is a horrible choice for this application. I think its cool that you want to do something like this, but i think of rock climbing, i think low speeds, seting up, pucnhing it to make the move. If I'm wrong, disregard this whole post.

you're going to want the torque. something a honda simply doesn't have until 5k. i'd stick with the v8.
or maybe a 3.8 pontiac gtp v6?

If it was geared right(way way way low), I could see the H22 or even a B18C being a monster rock crawler. *shrug*

 

[MugenCRX]

Not sure about the whole subject, but it sounds cool.

Just another suggestion for an engine would either be the Acura Legend 5cyl or 96+ Accord V6. Both come in autos. And if you were going to spend lots of money, I mean lots like $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ then you could make a monster with the C30A or the C32 DOHC VTEC motors out of the NSX.

 

[lilol89crx]

i see no problem neither if your geared right. when i attended UTI my transmission instructor was into rock crawling. his final drive ratio after tranny, both transfer cases and the rear diff was in some ungodly range. he stated that with both transfer cases in low and tranny in 5th gear he could rev at 6k and only move at 3 mph. he was running a 4 cyl 2.

 

[patooyee]

Gearing is no problem. Depending on how I want to do it, I can go all the way from around 500:1 to 50:1. But after hearing what everyone has to say and looking at pricing of what would be required to get all this stuff into a buggy, I think I am just going to stick to the tried and true (and paid for) 350 with the TH350 tranny and conventional t-case. That could change if I was to somehow come upon a FLAMING deal for an engine and tranny combo that didn't need any work, but I don't have time to wait for that.

Thanks to everyone for all the advice though!

Oh, and just to add some eye candy to this topic, here is my old ride that is taken apart now. It had 2 transfer cases with a final drive ratio of 150:1. At 5000 rpm I wouldn't go any faster than 5mph. It was too big and cumbersome for the comps though, so this time I'm going a lot smaller.

This is kind of what I'm goign for this time around:

J. J.

 

[nfn15037]

Cool crawler! Is it propane powered? Those look like fork lift propane tanks on the back there.

 

[Jeef]

ROck crawling kicks ass. When I have some extra cash in a few years and somewhere to rock crawl I would love to try it. I hear its a huge rush, you just need to find a good spotter. I love going offroad but because I scratched my old (well it was a 2003) truck with only 2500 miles on it offroading, I am being too much of a pussy to offroad my new truck.

 

[cycloneb18c3]

Ive got the integra for on road beating
Ive got a 97 Ford F250 7.3L Powerstroke Diesel 4x4 heavy duty, extended cab, long bed for off roadin...haha--banks stage 3 turbo kit, 4 inch exhaust, intercooler and chip, I can beat alot of civics and integras. Im not exactly how much boost its running(i have an autometer boost gauge that reads -30 to +30 and when I start the thing the gauge is pinned +30 psi.) the diesel engine would be a good choice for your rock crawler(tons of torque) except for the fact it weighs what like 10 b16s would weigh.

 

[patooyee]

Originally posted by Jeef@Mar 18 2004, 09:30 PM
ROck crawling kicks ass. When I have some extra cash in a few years and somewhere to rock crawl I would love to try it. I hear its a huge rush, you just need to find a good spotter. I love going offroad but because I scratched my old (well it was a 2003) truck with only 2500 miles on it offroading, I am being too much of a pussy to offroad my new truck.

It is a huge rush spotter or no. But to compete it is true that the spotter is your lifeline. My spotter is my brother. He's big so that he can pull me around and we work well together.

J. J.