Should the US take lessons from Israel?
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Read the entire post and sink yourself.Sabz5150 said:
I mentioned the crusades. They were in the name of power and wealth under the mask of religion.
Now to float my own boat... tell me all that religion has created. Civilized society ring a bell? Since the days of cavemen and being polytheistic, religion has governed the world.
As I said, the statement you made was quite possibly one of the most ignorant comments I have heard made in my entire lifetime. As I said, you're just as extreme, just on a different end of the spectrum.
This comes from someone who neither embraces religion fully, nor do I turn my nose up at it. I would say, that from a historical standpoint - religion, technology, language, communication, and law/order are the foundations of society. This is basic history 101. In all honesty, I remember learning the elements of civilization in fifth grade. Don't turn a blind eye simply because you don't embrace the idea, it does not mean that religion does not provide many, many benefits.
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hmmm, a chance to drag Iran into this mess? Oh its on
Sabz5150
FALCON PUNCH!!!
See how easy religion can be used to cause conflict?totalburnout said:
Even the word crusade... literal translation: war of the cross... has its roots deep in religion.
Jihad... crusade... same thing, different religion.
Would you like to know how many civilized socities religion, ESPECIALLY CHRISTIANITY, has destroyed? One only needs to look a couple thousand miles south for a few good examples. Religion in many cases has also worked to hold back science and new ways of thinking. The Inquisitions and all the live burnings for heresy comes to mind.
Now, did I say I hated religion or wanted religion eliminated? No. I simply said I do not believe it has any use in this world in this day and age. That means it has served its purpose. It did what it needed to do and now we, for lack of better words, have grown out of it.
hmmm, i don't think thats a smart move on their part...
...and yet you still only point out what religion has destroyed, rather than created.
I know how many civilizations have been destroyed in the name of religion, but I also know that every civilization that has risen has been created by religion.
Understand?
You probably still don't.
Yes, I know what the word crusade means. I also know that the war was about the inherent evil thats birthed within human beings, rather than religion itself. Its called an "underlying cause".
In short, without religion there's no you or I - yet you still have the damn audacity to say that it has no place in the world.
I'm sorry for attempting to explain anything that correlates with religion, to a predominately astheist forum. Its foolish and frustrating to try to open your eyes, but on the same token its also humorous because I am also astheist. The underlying difference is I can see both sides of the coin and the merits of religion. In short, without religion there would not be a civilized world. I think that its quite obvious that the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.
I know how many civilizations have been destroyed in the name of religion, but I also know that every civilization that has risen has been created by religion.
Understand?
You probably still don't.
Yes, I know what the word crusade means. I also know that the war was about the inherent evil thats birthed within human beings, rather than religion itself. Its called an "underlying cause".
In short, without religion there's no you or I - yet you still have the damn audacity to say that it has no place in the world.
I'm sorry for attempting to explain anything that correlates with religion, to a predominately astheist forum. Its foolish and frustrating to try to open your eyes, but on the same token its also humorous because I am also astheist. The underlying difference is I can see both sides of the coin and the merits of religion. In short, without religion there would not be a civilized world. I think that its quite obvious that the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.
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lets get back to israel killing those "evil muslims" (->S)
oooh noesssss...
a terrorist...
a terrorist...
Capt. Orygun
Win the Day
Dirk Dirka Mohammad Ali!
shirpa shirpa bak allah
Sabz5150
FALCON PUNCH!!!
And you seem to want to turn a blind eye to the damage that religion has caused.totalburnout said:
Let me ask you this: do you have any idea how farther along we would be technologically if religion hadn't stuck its nose into things all the time? Let's see... there *WERE* civilizations that knew more about mathematics and astronomy than we do today.
They had a better grasp of time and space five hundred years ago than we do right now.
Pot. Kettle. You know the rest.
"If it's bad, it isn't my fault but if it is good, then I'll take credit for it." Here I thought the crusades were fought to reclaim the holy land from the Muslims.
The inherent evil in man? I'll agree with you. The Pope (who speaks directly to God) stated that since the Muslims were heathens in the eyes of God, that it was cool to steal from them.
Hmmm... and I thought 'Thou shalt not steal' was universal. So, who is evil in this game? The Christians who killed and stole from these people or the Pope who said it was cool to do so? Either way, religion is the constant there.
Still missing the target.
I'll gladly admit that religion has merit. No doubt it does. However I want you to admit that maybe, just maybe, religion has held us back by a factor of several hundred years.
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IT IS ABSOLUTELY MINISCULE COMPARED TO WHAT IT HAS CREATED.Sabz5150 said:
See us, see the world, without religion, it wouldn't be here.
I don't turn a blind eye to anything. I readily admitted it had its advantages and it has its disadvantages. Unfortunately you cannot see this fact.
I won't continue reading your post any further because its not pot meets kettle. Its a neutral party makes a comment and then a thick headed person who already has preconceived notions cannot relate.
I know the crusades, I know the jihads, I even mentioned them in my argument. I know the salem witch trials, I know the burning of catholics, I know many of the terrible results of religion and although its not to take from them, in comparison to the world thats been built as a result of religion - they're but a blip on the map.
Its like saying because there's some crazy towel heads that say they're flying planes into buildings and turning themselves into human time bombs in the name of religion, that this somehow cheapens what religion has created.
-> it doesn't.
Never once have I denied that religion has its downfalls and has not held us back. But at the same time, without it, there would be nothing to hold back.
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Sabz5150
FALCON PUNCH!!!
totalburnout said:
That is a matter of opinion. It isn't so miniscule to those people that were going along just fine until people landed on their shores carrying crosses and chanting domenai domenai domenai.
I see this world. Thanks to religion, a huge part of it is extremely unstable.
See, this is where YOUR thickheadedness comes into play. I stated that religion has its advantages and disadvantages as well. However I believe that in many ways its disadvantages outweigh its advantages.
Well, seeing that you will not bend in your beliefs, that makes you just as thick headed, doesn't it? Neutral party my ass. Neither of us are neutral.
Once again, this is a matter of opinion. I'll take a base 20 math system, extremely accurate calendars and understanding of space beyond what we have now over many of the things that religion has given us. Now, I will put this in bold letters so that it reaches your brain:
Religion has done many great things, however it has committed many atrocities. As stated, which outweighs which is a matter of opinion.
It doesn't cheapen what it has done, however what religion has done for the world does not overshadow the destruction it has caused. That's my whole point.
Once again, like a poor marksman you keep missing the target. Once again, bold letters so it sinks in: Religion has little to no use *NOW*. It has served its purpose, it has done its job, now it is time for religion to take a back seat to human advancement in science and technology.
Sabz5150
FALCON PUNCH!!!
Celerity said:
Never said there was. I know there has always been religion.
Try the Mayans, Aztecs and Incas. Hence why I said look a few thousand miles south. Unless you can show me how to build and place a temple to show a shadow of a dragon three times a year...
We can make it happen twice, even four times. However three times still eludes us.
Another civilization created a tomb so that on certain days the entire tomb was illuminated inside. The building was moved (yes it was moved) and it lost its effect. To date nobody can figure out how it is done.
Back to the Mayans. They used a base 20 numerical system which was much easier to work with when it came to mathematics, astronomy and keeping track of time.
Unfortunately almost none of their texts exist because when the Christians came to convert them, they destroyed them all. No better way to convert a civilization than to destroy their history.
Many civilizations had technology which far surpassed the Europeans of the time. Once again, many of these things we can't do today.
Without religion, there wouldn't be this civilization to be unstable.
There wouldn't be the world as we know it, we probably would have off'd one another when their was no moral rules or obligations.
So thank your lucky stars that there was religion, before you bitch about the downfalls of religion.
Basically as I keep saying I acknowledge the problems associated with religion, but to even attempt to compare them to the benefits religion has had on the world, is like trying to compare an infinitesimal amount to an infinite amount. There's no comparison.
Fact still remains what you said, and continue to say is probably one of the most flat out ignorant things I've ever heard. Think about that when you go to sleep at night and tell yourself you're an open minded guy.
Also because a society could once accomplish a task and we cannot replicate that task, does not mean that they were more "advanced" necessarily. When its discovered that ancient people were capable of space exploration and entering outter space, please let me know. I subscribe to many ideas from the far east regarding medicine and hollistic cures, before I subscribe to western ideas. It does not mean that one society was more advanced, it makes that society different and posessing a very difinitate and limited expertise.
There wouldn't be the world as we know it, we probably would have off'd one another when their was no moral rules or obligations.
So thank your lucky stars that there was religion, before you bitch about the downfalls of religion.
Basically as I keep saying I acknowledge the problems associated with religion, but to even attempt to compare them to the benefits religion has had on the world, is like trying to compare an infinitesimal amount to an infinite amount. There's no comparison.
Fact still remains what you said, and continue to say is probably one of the most flat out ignorant things I've ever heard. Think about that when you go to sleep at night and tell yourself you're an open minded guy.
Also because a society could once accomplish a task and we cannot replicate that task, does not mean that they were more "advanced" necessarily. When its discovered that ancient people were capable of space exploration and entering outter space, please let me know. I subscribe to many ideas from the far east regarding medicine and hollistic cures, before I subscribe to western ideas. It does not mean that one society was more advanced, it makes that society different and posessing a very difinitate and limited expertise.
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Sabz5150
FALCON PUNCH!!!
totalburnout said:
I recognize that. I already said that who knows how many times.
We aren't offing one another now, even with those moral rules and obligations?
I'm an American, I can bitch about whatever I want for whatever reason I want. Just like you.
Once again, matter of opinion. You cannot say that without religion we'd still be in caves. Yes, religion brought us up the way we are now but nobody can say what would or would not happen. That's why I am not saying "If religion never existed, we'd be hanging out in other star systems!". I don't know! I simply said that religion has done some irreversable damage to our culture.
And for you to use the same old crap over and over and over again is one of the most ignorant things I have heard. I am a rather open minded guy... I don't hate any religion, I don't care if you practice a religion. My belief as I stated constantly is that religion has done its job, it's time to move on. Religion should not be the center of a civilization anymore. Look at the wacky Muslims for the reason why.
I don't call reaching the moon once "space exploration". The fact is they knew things that we do not and if they were still around, we'd be farther ahead than we are now. There are many things that have set us back as a race that didn't have anything to do with religion. The destruction of the Library of Alexandria is a big example of that.