Should the US take lessons from Israel?

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"You cannot say that without religion we'd still be in caves. Yes, religion brought us up the way we are now but nobody can say what would or would not happen."

"The fact is they knew things that we do not and if they were still around, we'd be farther ahead than we are now."

Read your own words. Its good to contradict oneself in the very same post.

Fact is we may not know where we would be, but its certainly not here - and if it wasn't here, with the exact chain of events that occured, you nor I would exist. Thats the bottom line.
 
totalburnout said:
"You cannot say that without religion we'd still be in caves. Yes, religion brought us up the way we are now but nobody can say what would or would not happen."

"The fact is they knew things that we do not and if they were still around, we'd be farther ahead than we are now."

Read your own words. Its good to contradict oneself in the very same post.

First off, I said nobody can say if religion didn't exist where we'd be. I also said if those civilizations that were wiped out by religion were around we'd be farther along. The first is fact. The second is fact. They do not contradict themselves.

Thanks for pwning yourself. Again.

Fact is we may not know where we would be, but its certainly not here - and if it wasn't here, with the exact chain of events that occured, you nor I would exist. Thats the bottom line.

Who knows? Perhaps you and I would be here. Would we be different if we were. Probably. Can't say for sure.

Still missing that target.
 
And thus concludes today's lessons in pretzel logic.

Finally, we can also see that were Sabs and Total both computers, they would be locked in an infinite loop.
 
Blanco said:
Jumpin Jesus on a pogo stick. The Earth and humans exsist because of religion? Wow, somebody fell asleep in Earth Science. Religion held merrit at one time but now it's little more than a tool to control the weak minded.

"The world would not be the same, had it not been for religion."

Religion created civilization.


Sabz, you've missed the target in History 101. Every civilization needs to meet the criteria of religion to be considered a civilization. I have never, ever, researched a group of peoples who did not have some form of religion, even if its very different from what is typically regarded as religion.

You = off target.
 
Read "Godless" for more about the liberal stance on religion, and the conservative answers, without getting preachy.
 
totalburnout said:
"The world would not be the same, had it not been for religion."

Religion created civilization.


Sabz, you've missed the target in History 101. Every civilization needs to meet the criteria of religion to be considered a civilization. I have never, ever, researched a group of peoples who did not have some form of religion, even if its very different from what is typically regarded as religion.

You = off target.

Dude, the horse is dead. Stop beating it.

What I don't get is why you are still hitting on the beginnings of civilization. Religion was quite useful back then when we needed to worry about things like that. Today, we do not. It is of no use in this day and age.

I have yet to see you counter that assumption. You're still beating on the beginnings of civilization. That's why you are missing the target over and over.
 
Sabz5150 said:
Dude, the horse is dead. Stop beating it.

What I don't get is why you are still hitting on the beginnings of civilization. Religion was quite useful back then when we needed to worry about things like that. Today, we do not. It is of no use in this day and age.

I have yet to see you counter that assumption. You're still beating on the beginnings of civilization. That's why you are missing the target over and over.
...and since its the foundation of society, it has no place in today's society.

Come on now, open your eyes. You need not go to church to believe in a higher being. You need not attend religious ceremonies to have your basic principles founded on religion.

This country is founded on the christian religion. There's traces of religion everywhere and day in and day out by following the regulations set forth on our society, you're following religious based ideals.

How can you not see this?

Everything is steeped in religion. When people stray from the generally accepted ideals of religion, like certain muslim extremists have rationed its okay to kill in the name of a higher being, is when a problem occurs.
 
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everyone knows the aliens came down and built the pyamids and the temples :p

and yes, i agrere.... back when we didn't know better, religion was all we had to explain the hows or whys. today, 90% of it has been proven scientifically. over time, the rest will be proven too.

unless soem divinci code shit proves to me otherwise, i hold religion no higher than i do aesop's fables.

afterall, they are all just stoires designed to teach a moral lesson, no?
 
pissedoffsol said:
everyone knows the aliens came down and built the pyamids and the temples :p

and yes, i agrere.... back when we didn't know better, religion was all we had to explain the hows or whys. today, 90% of it has been proven scientifically. over time, the rest will be proven too.

unless soem divinci code shit proves to me otherwise, i hold religion no higher than i do aesop's fables.

afterall, they are all just stoires designed to teach a moral lesson, no?

I would agree completely.

I believe religion was developed to scare the masses into acting civilized - but as such its been successful on a great scale.

That doesn't mean that religion has lost its place in society or that religion is around every corner and continues to shape the world - even if its not by stringent church go'ers, generally everyone's basic ideals are governed by religion.

Why is it "wrong" to murder? Being against the law is one thing, being morally grounded by religion not to commit murder is an entirely different thing. We, generally all, subscribe to these ideas subconsciously.
 
totalburnout said:
...and since its the foundation of society, it has no place in today's society.

Come on now, open your eyes. You need not go to church to believe in a higher being. You need not attend religious ceremonies to have your basic principles founded on religion.

This country is founded on the christian religion. There's traces of religion everywhere and day in and day out by following the regulations set forth on our society, you're following religious based ideals.

How can you not see this?

Everything is steeped in religion. When people stray from the generally accepted ideals of religion, like certain muslim extremists have rationed its okay to kill in the name of a higher being, is when a problem occurs.

And certain extremists Christians haven't killed in the name of a higher being?! C'mon now... more people have been killed in the name of God than for all other reasons combined.

All that aside, I don't need a religion to tell me what is right and what is wrong. I know stealing and murdering is wrong... no holy book need tell me that. And no holy book is going to tell me who I can and cannot marry or change what my children are being taught in school or what kind of medicines me and my significant other can take.

THAT is why is no longer has a place.

When religion went from telling people it is wrong to commit atrocities to telling people who they are allowed to marry and began to stifle science in the name of "Intelligent Design", that's when it started to go against civilization and not with it.

Everyone knows the general "don't steal, don't kill, don't bang yer bud's girl, use your turn signal" but face it, not everybody wants to subscribe to the things that tell them how to govern their own personal lives.

Being against gay marriage is like being against blue socks... you can't see them, it doesn't bother you, why do you have an issue with it? Oh, because your GOD says it's wrong. The Christians need to realize that's THEIR god, not everyone's! The same goes for this 'morally refusing to fill birth control prescriptions' bullshit. If a pharmacist gives my girl that line, I'll come across that fuckin counter.

Religion lost it's direction a long time ago. It went from keeping society civil to trying to keep society under control. We don't need, nor want, that control.
 
Gay marriage.

Say it with me now.. maaarrriage.

Marriage is within the sacrisanct of whatever church you're marrying within. And if Gays aren't allowed to marry within one religion, then .. .well, that's that !

Gays can live in homes, work in offices and play sports - Fundies have no issue with that. But you can't declare your will in front of a god that won't have you. Try marrying a Jewish girl.... OR a Muslim one :)

"The right" has a problem with gays because of a gay agenda. They have parades and marches and even "The gay Olympics" (I kid you fucking not) where they themselves have created a limited situation - nay - reality where non-gays aren't welcome. Will they hit you baseball bats for walking in a gay parade as a straight? no. Well, Unless they are Irish.

The Gays have all sorts of state aid and special legislation laid out before them because they choose to live a deviant lifestyle (And beyond living a deviant lifestyle - they like to put their wankers up the poop chute of another guy). If you lead a deviant lifestyle ... say... foot fetish. Should the government give you special concession ? If you're beat up in an alley is it a hate crime ?

The World's Gay are completely over the top. They try to convert whenever possible, and they believe that you should do more than respect. All farm animals are Equal. Pigs are more equal.

And Gay is a choice. if you think that people are born gay, I want you to look around you at all the gay babies. Funny story - I was at a party this year, and someone brought his 12 year old son. His son is funny as hell. We were talking, and then went silent, and his son says "Whenever there is a moment of silence, a gay baby is born" and I cracked up. His dad told me not to encourage him, and I said "But come on ! Democrats and Liberals think people are born gay! That must mean there are tons of gay babies !"

He didn't think it was funny. My neo con friends did.


End threadjack. Now, onto Israel -
 
Celerity said:
Gay marriage.

Say it with me now.. maaarrriage.

Marriage is within the sacrisanct of whatever church you're marrying within. And if Gays aren't allowed to marry within one religion, then .. .well, that's that !

Gays can live in homes, work in offices and play sports - Fundies have no issue with that. But you can't declare your will in front of a god that won't have you. Try marrying a Jewish girl.... OR a Muslim one :)

"The right" has a problem with gays because of a gay agenda. They have parades and marches and even "The gay Olympics" (I kid you fucking not) where they themselves have created a limited situation - nay - reality where non-gays aren't welcome. Will they hit you baseball bats for walking in a gay parade as a straight? no. Well, Unless they are Irish.

The Gays have all sorts of state aid and special legislation laid out before them because they choose to live a deviant lifestyle (And beyond living a deviant lifestyle - they like to put their wankers up the poop chute of another guy). If you lead a deviant lifestyle ... say... foot fetish. Should the government give you special concession ? If you're beat up in an alley is it a hate crime ?

The World's Gay are completely over the top. They try to convert whenever possible, and they believe that you should do more than respect. All farm animals are Equal. Pigs are more equal.

And Gay is a choice. if you think that people are born gay, I want you to look around you at all the gay babies. Funny story - I was at a party this year, and someone brought his 12 year old son. His son is funny as hell. We were talking, and then went silent, and his son says "Whenever there is a moment of silence, a gay baby is born" and I cracked up. His dad told me not to encourage him, and I said "But come on ! Democrats and Liberals think people are born gay! That must mean there are tons of gay babies !"

He didn't think it was funny. My neo con friends did.


End threadjack. Now, onto Israel -

Once again you prove my point!

Marriage is a personal binding. For some it may be religious but for many it is not. The same goes for the gays. Do you honestly think they want to be married under a religion? Hell no! They simply want to be married just like everyone else. I'll give them that, no problem.

My girl and I don't plan on getting married under any religion, does that make our marriage invalid?

Once again, religion stifles the lifestyle of people who do not subscribe to it.

I'm a liberal. Gay is a choice. There, I said it. Kills that stereotype. It's a choice that best suits you and your life... like following a religion. However you seem to have a problem with one wanting its way while letting the other run rampant.

Why is that?
 
yeah. i agree with everything above - but i dont see why they should receive aid. they are just like you and me. no disabilities. nothing is stopping them from getting a job, or adopting children, and etc etc. same rights as we have.
 
TurboMirage said:
yeah. i agree with everything above - but i dont see why they should receive aid. they are just like you and me. no disabilities. nothing is stopping them from getting a job, or adopting children, and etc etc. same rights as we have.

They shouldn't.

Want to make everyone happy? Propose a trade. Legal binding marriage in exchange for all the special aid.

If you want to be equal, you're gonna be equal in all ways.
 
"Do you honestly think they want to be married under a religion? Hell no! They simply want to be married just like everyone else."



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA AHHAA AHAHAHAHAHAH
 
Sabz5150 said:
They shouldn't.

Want to make everyone happy? Propose a trade. Legal binding marriage in exchange for all the special aid.

If you want to be equal, you're gonna be equal in all ways.

ill drink to that.
 
Celerity said:
"Do you honestly think they want to be married under a religion? Hell no! They simply want to be married just like everyone else."



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA AHHAA AHAHAHAHAHAH

I know, tough concept to wrap your head around but it really is simple.

All the gay people I know don't get any special aid or go to rallies. They're just regular people.

Of course all most people see are the wackos. Just like everyone sees your wackos, my wackos, the wackos in the middle east and so on.

Or is it that marriage without religion stumps you?
 
Marriage without religion is either:

1. Long term dating. Going steady. Wearing your letterman jacket.
2. Civil Union. Allowed for taxation purposes.

"My girl and I don't plan on getting married under any religion, does that make our marriage invalid?"

No church ? Justice of the peace ? No religious vows ? Civil Union. Have fun with that. Hope you don't plan on rings, because that's a religious symbol. Origins of the Ring are Pagan, and about the only thing that's not religious is the whole tossing the bouquet thing, and the cake. Well, the cake is even Pagan. But The garder belt is definately not :)

-> Steve


So you can choose either of those routes. Marriage is a religious institution.
 
Celerity said:
Marriage without religion is either:

1. Long term dating. Going steady. Wearing your letterman jacket.
2. Civil Union. Allowed for taxation purposes.

"My girl and I don't plan on getting married under any religion, does that make our marriage invalid?"

No church ? Justice of the peace ? No religious vows ? Civil Union. Have fun with that. Hope you don't plan on rings, because that's a religious symbol. Origins of the Ring are Pagan, and about the only thing that's not religious is the whole tossing the bouquet thing, and the cake. Well, the cake is even Pagan. But The garder belt is definately not :)

-> Steve


So you can choose either of those routes. Marriage is a religious institution.

Okay then. Marriage is a religious institution. That means we can go ahead and strike it from the government books, correct? Can't endorse religion, that's the constitution!

Can't have it both ways.
 
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