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supercharged d16a6, na b16a1, or na d16z6?

Discussion in 'HYBRID -> ED-EF / DA' started by Panther550, Feb 12, 2005.

  1. Panther550

    Panther550 Member

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    i think i've been planning ahead a bit too much cuz i'm not sure which setup i would prefer now.

    here's the dilemma, buying and installing the supercharger or going na on a d16z6 would be cheaper than swapping out the engine for a jdm b16a1 (not much maybe a couple hundred dollars canadian). but the curb weight of the jdm would be lighter with the supercharger than installing the b16a1 (about 30-50 pounds). plus i'd have more torque after installing the supercharger than i would after swapping in a b16a1 engine.

    although, if i installed a supercharger the rpm redline would be a lot lower than swapping in a b16a1 engine, plus there wouldn't be much point in getting a jdm front end conversion if i don't have a jdm engine under the hood. Plus i could get more horsepower and about the same amount of torque from swapping in a b16a1, although at the same time i wouldn't get all that much more horsepower and to get that extra horsepower would cost a lot of extra money. Plus i heard that getting replacement/repair parts for the jdm b16a1 transmission is really hard and even though i could use a cable transmission from a usdm b17a1 or a usdm b18a if i used one of those then i wouldn't be able to install ATS's carbon clutch.

    My other option is swapping a d16z6 into a '88 CRX Si and then going NA.

    I should make it known though that i'm not a big fan of forced induction, although it's only because i thought installing a supercharger would weigh down my car a lot. but anyways i'm for the most part i'm a na fan.

    well i'm just looking for some feedback, anything would be great.
     
  2. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Wow. That's a lot of speculation on a few setups that are actually quite different.

    1. You really shouldn't worry about connecting the JDM engine with the JDM front end conversion. If you like the way the JDM front end looks, just get it- who cares if you have a JDM engine inside?

    2. I wouldn't worry too much about replacement parts for a B series transmission. If you're staying at all motor power levels, the transmission will last quite a while- and you can still order synchronizers for other B transmissions that might work in yours.

    3. Why are you worried about redline? Do you want high revving horsepower or low end torque more? All 3 engine setups will produce about the same amount of power in the end, so it's really up to which route you'd like to take.

    4. The B16 swap will cost quite a bit of cash- you have to worry about the shift linkage and mounts, then getting the right intermediate shaft and axles (usually included with a "complete conversion" package) to work with your setup. You'll have tons of potential for power later, but if you don't want to spend much more on top of the swap, going with a D series build can get you to the same power levels for the same amount of cash (or less).

    5. Don't worry about weight too much- they're all going to be pretty close- within 70 pounds of each other. If you're really worried about weight, just go all motor on a D16Z6. Without too much money invested, you can make the same power levels as a B16- probably for less than a B16 swap would cost you. There are so many good cheap parts available for the D16 VTEC engines, so it's actually pretty easy. Guys are making 150-160whp on 91 octane gas with OEM ZC pistons and a hot aftermarket cam plus some tuning- so it really doesn't take much to get respectable numbers.

    I hope that helps your decision a bit. If you're looking for power levels that match the B16, I would just go the all motor D16Z6 route. With a rebuild and upgraded parts, you'll have an engine that's new inside instead of a B16 with a questionable history, you'll be lighter, and you'll be making the same amount of power with more torque (D16 has a longer stroke, same displacement). You'll spend about the same amount of cash as a B16 swap (maybe less), you'll be slightly lighter, and you'll make more power than a bolt-on supercharger would at stock settings on your D16A6.
     
  3. Panther550

    Panther550 Member

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    Thanks for the feedback.

    i think i have decided not to go with the supercharger, although i'm still not sure if i want to go na d16z6 or na b16a1. it basically comes down to 4 parts.

    if i go na d16z6 then:

    i can't get a Crower stroker kit
    i can't get a ATS carbon clutch/Exedy carbon clutch
    the gear ratios on the b16a1 are faster then on a d16z6 transmission
    and obviously the b16a1 has dohc over the d16z6 sohc
    oh and i can buy higher comp pistons for a b16a1 than a d16z6
     
  4. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    If you're willing to spend the money on a Crower stroker kit for a B16, then you have much deeper pockets than you alluded to in your first post. If you want to go to a larger displacement engine, I would suggest that you start out with a B18 or a B20, then add VTEC from there.

    Do you really need the carbon clutch? At stock-like power levels, there are a very large number of clutches that will work well- and even hold power well beyond stock levels. I run an ACT HD/SS clutch, and it's very easy to drive AND can hold about 50% more torque than I'm even putting down to the ground now.

    Yes, the gear ratios on the B16 are faster, but you can build a hybrid ZC/Si transmission for very little money too- and that will turn your Z6 into a completely different beast.

    Yes, the B16 has DOHC over the SOHC D16, but when you go to an aftermarket cam, the SOHC is usually set up for more overlap anyway. They work well, trust me.

    You can get higher compression pistons for both engines, both in OEM straight from Honda and aftermarket forged units.

    How much money do you really want to spend, and how much power are you looking for in the end? On the one hand, you say you don't want to spend too much, but then you start talking about expensive clutches and stroker kits. Which is it?
     
  5. Panther550

    Panther550 Member

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    I wasn't lying when i gave the assumption that i don't have a lot of money and if i got the b16a1 engine i wouldn't be adding very many mods until i paid back the money for the swap, oh and i'm looking at doing either of these setups in a '88 CRX Si because they're only 2017lbs. and a lot cheaper than most other hondas. Plus if you take into account the rods and pistons which are included in the stroker kit then it's actually pretty reasonably priced. I'm basically looking at which setup has the best potential for power, cuz once everything is installed on a car that's sort of on my wish list, i get bored pretty quickly, and i'm also looking at which setup will offer the least amount of headaches, cuz eventhough i know about car parts and how they work i don't know how to install them, or how i would start doing setups like mini-me's eventhough i seen a bunch of sites listing what all is needed my brain just crashes when i read that stuff.

    As far as what i'm looking for in horsepower and torque, i don't really know, fast enough to surprise people, i don't know. Horsepower isn't as important as not having a cookie cutter car, i want something all my own.

    As far as the ATS clutch goes, put it this when i watch racing on tv i'm more interested in rally than drag, i just like it cuz it's extremely lightweight rotational mass and it looks cool.

    Although i've never heard of that ZC/Si hybrid tranny so i was hoping maybe you could elaborate on that.

    And this might be a little off topic but if i swapped a d16z6 into a '88 CRX Si what would i need besides the engine, ecu, and a obd0 to obd1 wiring conversion. And since i wouldn't be able to use the d16z6 trans because it's hydraulic could i use the stock CRX Si tranny or could i also use that ZC/Si hybrid tranny.
     
  6. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    If you "take into account" the price of the crank, pistons and rods- you should probably just go with a Tech43 stroker kit. It allows you to use the stock B18A/B crank and rods in your B16A with just a set of custom pistons. It would be much cheaper than Crower's $2000+ kit.

    If you want the best power potential, then you want nothing less than the B16. I'd go ahead and drop in a B18C. Both are much larger headaches than a D series swap though.

    As far as wanting something all your own- you own a Honda. Unless you're going to swap in a turbine and make a custom gearbox that goes to the rear wheels, it's all been done before. Don't worry about being original, because almost everything has alraedy been done before. Just pick what you like and build it.

    Any swap in an 88 CRX will be enough to surprise people, even the modded D16Z6. There's a LOT that you can do with the SOHC VTEC powerplant, and you can easily spank B16 swapped cars with a lightly modded D16Z6 swap in a CRX. People won't think that you're very fast either when they look under your hood.

    If you're worried that much about rotational mass, don't look at the clutch assembly. Clutches are just friction discs, a pressure plate, then some metal to hold it all together. I don't think you're going to get an appreciable weight difference from clutch selection. The flywheel is a totally different story. Go with a 7-8 pounder and you'll be pretty happy with how fast the engine revs.

    I'm not really interested in drag either- but clutch choice is really more dependent on the type of engagement you want and the power you need to hold, not the type of racing you're going to be doing. If you want to rally, you're looking at the wrong type of car anyway.

    A ZC/Si hybrid transmission is a combination of ZC gears and an Si final drive. The ZC has the best 1-5 gearing out of all the D series transmissions, and the Si has the shortest final drive at 4.250. Build this hybrid and you'll have near perfect 1-5 gear spacing and a final drive that really boosts your acceleration. Considering that the GSR and USDM ITR transmissions have a final drive of 4.4, 4.25 isn't that far off. The USDM B16 transmission has a final drive of 4.266, so that's pretty much the same as the Si. A ZC/Si hybrid transmission can be viewed somewhat like a baby B series transmission for your D series engine.

    You can use the stock CRX Si transmission, but you'll have to play with the clutch setup to make everything fit correctly. The 88 transmission has more splines on the input shaft than the 89-91, and depending on which year car/transmission you have, the flywheel can be one of two sizes as well. You need to match the clutch disc size up to the flywheel, and you have to match sure that the number of splines matches between the disc and the input shaft on the transmission... then you need to make sure that the pressure plate is the correct size to bolt onto the flywheel. There's a chart out there somewhere detailing exactly what you need to do to get everything to match up, but the easiest way to make sure everything fits is to use a 90-91 transmission. They'll bolt right up to the D16Z6. The ZC/Si hybrid setup will behave the same way depending on which transmission housing you use.
     
  7. Panther550

    Panther550 Member

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    I was reading on a reference article on hondaswap.com that the JDM integra ZXi has the best 3rd, 4th, and final drive gear ratios and the ZC has the best 2nd and 5th gear ratios. So if i can use zc gears with a Si final drive could i also use the ZXi 3rd, 4th, and final drive gears and the ZC 2nd and 5th gears.

    And also why wouldn't you recommend the CRX for rally, i mean i'm not seriously looking in that direction right now, but i might be in the future.

    ZXi
    3rd: 1.346
    4th: 1.033
    final drive: 4.437

    ZC
    2nd: 1.944
    5th: o.878

    pretty much all the first gears are 3.250 which is fine.
     
  8. Panther550

    Panther550 Member

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    I'm thinking this is a stupid question but can B-series cable transmissions be used with the D16z6 engine.
     
  9. projectxspeed

    projectxspeed Senior Member

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    No it will not bolt up, but with enough $ or custome work anything is possible
     
  10. 92civicb18b1

    92civicb18b1 The Trisexual

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    inever heard of the zxi but im sure its gonna be rare. if it was a d series then yea the gears should be interchangeable.

    And that's a killer FD for a D series, you can build an awsome trans with that.
     
  11. Panther550

    Panther550 Member

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  12. Panther550

    Panther550 Member

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    Are you saying to buy a '90-91 CRX Si instead of the '88 or are you saying to swap the '88 transmission for a '90-91 transmission.
     
  13. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    The easiest way to go would be to get a 90-91 transmission. If you're going to be building a hybrid transmission anyway, you'll be able to pick and choose which parts you're going to use.
     
  14. Citizen_Insane

    Citizen_Insane Senior Member

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    To me, it sounds like you're putting too much into an engine that has too little performance. Sure you can make similar power to a b16 with a ZC, but after that, its kinda down hill. If you swap in the b16, you can enjoy that, and then upgrade the block if you want more torque and power. The thing with the b16 is, that you don't need to buy expensive stroker kits and whatnot to get larger displacement. Hell, you could even drop a bored out b20z block in there for 2.2L of displacement + VTEC from your b16 head. To me it seems senseless to drop a lot of money into a D series engine that won't have much potential after 180hp. The money could be better spent on a dohc vtec motor that has far more potential.

    I am biased, I have a b16 in my 90 CRX HF, and I can tell you, that its the only car I would drive under $30,000. Its damn fast, it handles like a charm, and its a CRX what is there not to love! So, in summary, I think the b16 would be a better investment for 3 reasons:

    1. Expandability - there is more aftermarket support for B series motors and you can up the displacement with an LS or CRV block.
    2. Transmission - The JDM b16 transmission is the shortest geared tranny made by honda. Unless you plan on going faster than 130mph (yes it goes this high, I've been there on oversized tires :) ), there is no other tranny you could POSSIBLY want.
    3. Resale - D-series engines are harder to sell because lots of people want to go JDM B-series. Sure its the popular thing to do....but dont' you think they're doing it for a reason?
     
  15. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    I agree- but he also has conflicting goals, and he needs to clarify exactly what he wants to do. On the one hand, he wants to not spend too much money and have an easy swap- on the other, he wants to drop a ton of cash into a block to make it a street dominator. The easy and still satisfying path would be to go with the D (and it doesn't take much money to mod, really), and the more expensive and more powerful path would be to swap in the B16.

    Which way do you want to go?
     
  16. Panther550

    Panther550 Member

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    Honestly i would like to just be able to swap in the D16Z6 not because it's cheaper, but because i'd have more money to spend on actual horsepower and torque upgrades, rather than spending that money on "the possibility/potential" that i could make more horsepower in a B16a. But i realize that when i go to sell a car with a D-series engine in it, it won't matter very much how much money i've put into it. I don't know this is the list of what i'm looking at getting for the D16z6 tell me what you think cuz i've seen dyno sheets online that show guys making 160hp and 120ft-lbs w/ cylinder heads, camshafts, and modded ecus and then most everybody online is only making like 120-130hp, well here it is:

    Skunk2 IM
    Mugen header EF8/9 or EG2 (i'm not sure which would fit best)
    JG engine dynamics Redline cylinder head
    Crower valve springs, and titanium retainers
    Skunk2 valves
    CraneCams stage 2 camshaft
    Skunk2 camgears
    Unorthodox Racing pulleys
    random tech cat
    fujitsubo RM01A exhaust
    Weapon-R Secret weapon intake
    Crower titanium rods
    STR 70mm T/B
    C&R Racing radiator
    Spoon 15in. rims
    Spoon monoblock calipers
    powerslot cryo slotted brakes
    Arias 11.5:1 pistons
    Hondata Intake heatshield
    Darton sleeves
    NGK spark plug wires

    i think that's it, i'm just scared of putting all this on and then not really noticing the power difference, but about how much power do you think this could get me.
     
  17. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Skunk2 IM <-- good choice
    Mugen header EF8/9 or EG2 (i'm not sure which would fit best) <-- get a custom SMSP
    JG engine dynamics Redline cylinder head <-- custom port job will be cheaper and better
    Crower valve springs, and titanium retainers <-- good
    Skunk2 valves <-- bad
    CraneCams stage 2 camshaft <-- get Crower stage 3
    Skunk2 camgears <-- you only need 1 cam gear
    Unorthodox Racing pulleys <-- skip these
    random tech cat <-- this or a Carsound, my Random fell apart, others' have too
    fujitsubo RM01A exhaust <-- I guess that would do ok, most catbacks won't make much difference in power
    Weapon-R Secret weapon intake <-- get an ImportBuilders "Super Duper" intake
    Crower titanium rods <-- just stay with stock rods with ARP bolts, this is overkill and $$$
    STR 70mm T/B <-- ok, but probably too big
    C&R Racing radiator <-- stock is fine, save your money
    Spoon 15in. rims <-- again, waste of money- get Rotas
    Spoon monoblock calipers <-- waste of money- go with FastBrakes if you want to spend cash for something decent and not go broke
    powerslot cryo slotted brakes <-- waste of money
    Arias 11.5:1 pistons <-- compression too low, get ImportBuilders Wiseco pistons, or use JDM DOHC ZC pistons
    Hondata Intake heatshield <-- good
    Darton sleeves <-- waste of money for all motor unless you want to go big bore
    NGK spark plug wires <-- good

    Again, how much money do you really want to spend on this? With all those Spoon parts and other random stuff that you don't really need, you could swap in a B block that's been built up pretty nicely. Save some cash and buy the correct parts for big power, and don't buy all the crap that you don't need like titanium rods and racing radiators- or anything with "Spoon" on it.
     
  18. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    No stealing ideas!!! B)
     
  19. Panther550

    Panther550 Member

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    As far as the Spoon wheels go, i only want them cuz they're the lightest rims i've seen at 3.8 kg, same with the Spoon calipers cuz they're half the weight of stock. I realized after that i should have said the crower stage 3 cam as well. I don't quite know why you suggest Wiseco pistons cuz all i saw on their sight was 9.0:1 compression pistons.

    I was wondering which valves you would suggest, the only place in know of that makes them for the d16 is crower. And why would you skip the unorthodox pulleys.

    With all of this i am starting to look again at swapping in the B16A engine cuz i live in canada and i emailed a jdm engine supplier in the US and he told me that it would cost $500 US to ship a d16 engine to where i live, which bumps the price up to about $1200 US plus i'd still have to buy the wiring conversion, unless i can find a supplier in canada that sells d16z6 engines. But i could buy a B16a for $1250 at a store in Calgary which is about a 3 hour drive from where i live and just skip the shipping charges. I'd still have to buy axles, a shift linkage, and a mounting kit, but that'd only be a few hundred dollars more.
     
  20. Panther550

    Panther550 Member

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    i'm wondering, what has more potential a D16Z6 or a jdm ZC engine. And what usdm cars came stock with zc engines. Oh and what's the stroke on the ZC engine.
     
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