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Swap Complete - but I need more power

Discussion in 'HYBRID -> ED-EF / DA' started by pauls81sc, Aug 1, 2008.

  1. pauls81sc

    pauls81sc Member

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    Okay, so the LS is officially swapped and running like a champ in the old CRX. Other than an oil leak from the pan and a hellaciously squeaky alternator belt that will both get taken care of this weekend, the project is officially complete and a success.

    Here's some details on the swap
    http://hondaswap.com/hybrid-ed-ef-da/big-thanks-hondaswap-com-149125/

    Disclaimer: This build was originally done just to prove to myself that I could do it. It was my first ever swap and first ever engine rebuild so I intentionally kept it simple with an obd-0 B18A into my CRX Si. Maximizing horsepower was not my original intention so please dont trash me for doing this and then wanting more power.

    I've only put about 150 miles on the completely rebuilt motor so she is still getting broken-in, but I can tell already it's not going to satisfy my need for speed.

    I've been askin around and everyone seems to have a different opinion about how to get the horsepower up. I really want some low-end torque to get this baby off the line quicker since most of my driving time will be spent on the street making higher-priced vehicles feel bad about getting beat by my little beater. Like any reasonable person I want to maximize my horsepower-to-dollars-spent ratio. Here are the apparent options:

    1. Go LS-VTEC. Maybe $500-$600 to do this and an extra say 40-50hp. This was my original phase 2 for this project but people are saying reliability is a major problem with this option. Is it true? Or have people tried to cut corners and just paid the price for it?

    2. Spray it. A nitrous kit is an easy option. Around the same price as the LSVTEC and 25-50hp depending on the kit, right? Reliability is another good question for this one.

    3. "Dude, put a turbo on that thing." I am aware of some cheap turbo kits out there and hp could be increased significantly, but this seems like a major modification. Options 1 and 2 appear easier to accomplish. And the car already sounds like a wet fart going down the road (pretty much all 4-bangers do) I think a turbo will only make it worse.

    4. A crap-load of bolt-ons. In other words, intake manifolds, headers, adjustable cam gears, the cams themselves, port-and-polish, etc. This could really start to add up and how much power would I gain? In the dollars spent vs. hp gains this one scores last.

    5. Pull it out and throw in a K20. Or whatever other motor is the hot swap right now. Being an "experienced" swapper (if one swap makes me experienced) I feel much more confident about taking on a project like this one, but I just spent a heckuvalotta time and money getting where I am and pulling it out to start over would make me feel like I wasted my time. I'm just not gonna do it.

    Okay HondaSwap, you guys got me into this.....what should I do next?

    Paul
     
  2. INJEN78

    INJEN78 HS LEGEND

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    1.ls/vtec,the heads alone are 300+,then you need the conversion kit,ecu and jumperharness,but it does yield some power,but the ls bottom ends(stock) arent designed to rev that high,so most of your power will be cut short

    2.spray isnt really reliable and it will end up costing more than you expect because of refills,and your motor again cant really hold that much of it(safely)

    3.turbo is a good choice,its always there when you need it,and if tuned properly will give you good power and reliability

    4.boltons aka n/a dont yield as much power as your going to want,but are fairly cheap

    5.k20 is a hell of alot of work,the above listed mods would be cheaper and work better for you.i dont think 1 swap is enough to be called (experienced)
    k20 isnt just a swap,you need to change alot of shit.front suspension being the major of it,

    either way you go,just dont throw parts at the motor and expect it to go fast and reliable,take the time to plan what YOU want to do,
     
  3. DESPAIN

    DESPAIN yep....mmhhm.......yep...

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    What is the k20 motor?
     
  4. AHHVTEC

    AHHVTEC Well-Known Member VIP

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    if your serious google it
     
  5. INJEN78

    INJEN78 HS LEGEND

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    wow,thats actually kind of shocking

    they come in the 1994 honda civic sx,theyre pretty quick
     
  6. LSCRX

    LSCRX New Member

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    I am in a simular situation you are in. I have a LS in my CRX as well. Its kinda quick, but i want a few more ponies under the hood. You dont need too much to get these little crx's going. I am debating the LSvtec or cams/retainers. But i want it to be all motor, it adds insult to injury when you beat someone in a lil 4 banger;) My estimates are the cams are about 500 for the set and LSvtec is about 1000ish:confused: Does that sound about right?
     
  7. AHHVTEC

    AHHVTEC Well-Known Member VIP

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    search, then make your own thread
     
  8. DESPAIN

    DESPAIN yep....mmhhm.......yep...

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    I can get cams for my 2.3 prelude si for 399.99 and they ahve to be made so they are hard to find you can prob. Get some alot cheaper than 500.00
     
  9. INJEN78

    INJEN78 HS LEGEND

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    well i can tell you that skunk2 im is doing nothing for you,

    goodluck with that h23,those motors are garbage!!!



    and start your own threads
     
  10. newb

    newb phresh VIP

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    :werd:
     
  11. DESPAIN

    DESPAIN yep....mmhhm.......yep...

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    Why do you hate on the h231a? They have more potential........
     
  12. INJEN78

    INJEN78 HS LEGEND

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    they have more potential than what???
    is it just because theyre almost the biggest 4 cyl from honda??
     
  13. LSCRX

    LSCRX New Member

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    WTF? i am just relating to this guy. As we have the same car/engine and letting him know that it cost more than 5-600 dollars to go LSvtec and but he can do cams/bolt ons close to that price.
     
  14. LSCRX

    LSCRX New Member

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    Yeah i know, it came with the motor along with the DC headers:D But i hope to be able to use it soon (cams or LSV)
     
  15. AHHVTEC

    AHHVTEC Well-Known Member VIP

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    dont jump the gun i didnt quote you so dont assume it was you
     
  16. pauls81sc

    pauls81sc Member

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    This post has taken a turn for the worse. Focus guys....focus....oohhmmmmmmmm
     
  17. INJEN78

    INJEN78 HS LEGEND

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    well what do YOU want to do?
     
  18. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Nobody's going to give you crap for using a non-OBD platform as opposed to a more recent one. It's still a major improvement, and if you're really splitting hairs about it- it doesn't make THAT much of a difference if you know what you're doing. Plus it's a hell of a lot cheaper and simpler. I used an OBD1 engine in my wife's car and turned it back to non-OBD. Easier. :D

    1. Reliability is not a problem if you do it right. Most of the problems you see are with people who have cut corners. Why do you think most of them are doing an LS/VTEC anyway? Too cheap to buy a complete GSR... so of course they're going to cut corners. Build it right (doesn't take THAT much cash) and it will treat you well. As far as the engine being able to rev high, the engine geometry isn't THAT different between the 89mm crank and the 87.2mm crank in the GSR. I ran my B20/VTEC up through 10k rpm for 45k miles and it did just fine. The bearings came out looking brand new after I rocked a ring loose while being a retard. All you really have to do to make sure your bottom end is good for higher revs is to make sure your bearings are in good condition and replace the rod bolts with stronger ARP pieces.

    2. Nitrous is very reliable. Again, it gets a bad reputation because people cut corners and they misuse it. The entry price is perceived to be cheap, right? So people spend $500 on a spray kit, bolt it up, then go play and blow something apart. You really SHOULD tune your car after you add nitrous to adjust for how it changes the way your engine operates. Once that is done, it's just as reliable as any other properly executed power adder. The only drawback is that you have to keep filling the bottle, and most spray and go applications are set up for short duration racing like the quarter mile race track.

    3. Turbocharging is a major modification, but it's not as bad as you think. Once you really read up and understand what goes into a turbo system and what makes it work, it's not as bad as it seems. The advantage is that you have power available any time as INJEN78 said, but it can easily be made as unreliable as any of the other options are perceived to be. As far as simplicity, it could be harder or easier than an LS/VTEC conversion. With a turbo setup, you don't have to go inside the engine if you don't want to. Everything happens on the outside. Another advantage is that you only stress the engine when you're really on the gas. Go high compression all motor and your engine ALWAYS sees the extra stress from high static compression (not a big deal if you know what you're doing). Boosting also has the opportunity to give you better fuel economy if you size everything right and don't change your driving habits. By the way, the turbo acts as a muffler too, so if you don't like the way your car sounds now, the turbo will actually help. :)

    4. Bolt-ons are bolt-ons. Once you go inside the engine, they're more "bolt-in" than "bolt-on." I would consider only things like intake/header/exhaust to be bolt-ons. Cams, porting, pistons, rods etc- those aren't bolt-ons anymore. As far as power gains, you can get quite a bit from an all motor build. Upwards of 260-270whp on pump gas can be had if you do things right on a B series engine. Yes, the power to dollar ratio really sucks (most of the time), but the feel and sound of the all motor powerplant is awesome. You just don't get that kind of instant response with any other configuration.

    5. The gains from dropping in a K20 vs modding your B18 dollar-wise just aren't worth it. You'd be starting over again from square one. You already spent the time and money swapping in a "new" engine and debugging it- do you really want to do it all again for $$$$$$$ and only 20-60hp more? It's not worth it.
     
  19. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    ^^^^^

    Ok. :)
     
  20. pauls81sc

    pauls81sc Member

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    Calesta you freakin ROCK. It's so refreshing to have some actually READ the post, really understand what I'm looking for, and lay out an intelligent, experienced reply.

    LSVTEC was my phase 2 from the get go and that's what it's gonna be. And as far as doing it right goes, that is not a problem. As stated before I just didnt swap an LS in. That thing has been decked, bored, and honed with new bearings, seals, gaskets, and o-rings. I replaced the pistons, the rings, and the pins. The head was resurfaced and rebuilt. And more. I did everything I could (in my rookie mind) to build it to last.

    I'll start doing some thorough research on the LSVTEC build and raising some coin to make it happen. I've got parts for sale from my swap which will be listed in the For Sale forums. I've got the D16 motor w/ JG Camshafts, a DC Header, transmission, shift linkage, a couple extra B18 intake manifolds and more.

    Besides the ARP rod bolts is there anything else you recommend for reliability?
     
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