Today's B Series Myth, 0wned.

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ok ok ok ok ok ok... I'll respond... :lol:

LS vs GSR.... here we fucking go.

first, lets get the basics out.

I paid $1200 shipped for my complete LS swap, tranny, ecu, etc etc. for the record, we'll say its 1500 cuz i got a good deal.
The average GSR is 3500 shipped for the same above.

for the record, I'll call this a 2k difference.

out of the box advantages of the GSR:
-more compression
-better built bottom end (yeah, i know... but hear me out)
-oil squiters to resist detonation better
-more horsepower
-better flowing head
-better geared tranny

out of the box advantages of the LS
-cheaper
-flatter, broader torque curve, even if peak is the same as the gsr.

I could go on for days- but i am bored of typing this already....

What it comes down to, is the gsr is a better motor. For the money, the LS rocks. it can be made fast. for under 2 grand, bill built his hatch- ls motor/head/tranny, b16 pistons, ported head, crower valve train, and crower 403 cams. It smoked the ever living piss out of another hatch with an sir2 in it that we raced. it wasn't even fair. we had 4 car lengths on em by mid 2nd gear. but, thats a b16.
then, we raced another eg hatch, with an itr bottom end, gsr head, and gsr tranny. we were ahead until the top of 2nd (60 mph) and then SLOWLY they pulled away in 3rd.

bills car dynoed at 148 hp, and has the stock ECU, which cuts it out at 7000. the cams are designed till 8500. with a proper ecu, tuning, and a HEADER!! haha!!! i bet we would have pulled on the 2nd hatch with the itr/gsr from above.

be that as it may- its your money, do what ever the fuck you want with it.
 
Originally posted by pissedoffsol+Jun 20 2003, 12:03 AM-->
pissedoffsol @ Jun 20 2003 said:
out of the box advantages of the LS
-flatter, broader torque curve, even if peak is the same as the gsr.
Click to expand...
hp means realatively little.... granted the GSR IS faster(when stock or close to it) but only if driven deep into the rpm range. Torque is what makes you accelerate and thanks to the ls not being bent over ass backwards to make the most of vtec it has a lower peak torque (5000ish vs 6500ish for the gsr) and more of it... this is also partially due to the fact that it has a greater displacement than the gsr.

look at the stock numbers from honda between the 2 cars(ill just compare manuals cause whats the point of an auto honda?):

LS-
140 hp @ 6300
128 lb ft @ 5200
1834 cc
redline- 6800

GSR
170 hp @ 7600
124 lb ft @ 6200
1797 cc
redline- 8100

my friend has a gsr with intake/exhaust and i consistantly pull him till mid way thru 2nd gear (not bad considering im more or less stock)... yes traction and a WHOLE bunch of other factors prolly play to my advantage... but even when we do 2nd or 3rd gear pulls i will hang with him untill i have to shift.

*edit- got some more #s

LS -

0-60: 7.6
1/4: 16.1

GSR
0-60: 7.1
1/4: 15.5

so for what ever extra money you spent on your gsr you only got .5 second to 60 and only another .1 in the 1320.... hmmmmm....no thanks, id rather take the b18b and get bolt ons (i hit 15.7 with a bad launch and only exhaust)


but b said it best:
pissedoffsol@Jun 20 2003, 12:03 AM

be that as it may- its your money, do what ever the fuck you want with it.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by 98integrals@Jun 20 2003, 01:19 AM
(ill just compare manuals cause whats the point of an auto honda?):
Click to expand...

holy shit! you spelled it right! we don't have to mexicans racing today :)
 
that extra 20% at the top is good for 1 to 1 1/2 secs faster in the 1/4 mile looking at stock 1/4 mile times for the GSR and LS

my friend had I/E/H cam gears and a few other minor things done and was able to run 14.3 in his GSR
try that in a Integra LS

BTW I paid 320 for my LS trans and I can get LS motors for around 400-500 bucks
why again did I spend tons more to drop a B16 in my car.... I have yet to have a LS with tons more torque come close to giving me a run for my money even when my B16 was fully stock with nothing but an Intake and Exhaust

Vtec+Boost=Own3d Brian will back me on that ONE day when he gets his shit together in 3 years
 
Originally posted by jeffie7@Jun 20 2003, 12:24 AM
that extra 20% at the top is good for 1 to 1 1/2 secs faster in the 1/4 mile looking at stock 1/4 mile times for the GSR and LS

my friend had I/E/H cam gears and a few other minor things done and was able to run 14.3 in his GSR
try that in a Integra LS
Click to expand...

check out those numbers up there ^.. and yes 16.1 stock on an ls is possible.. i did it with a 2.45 60' ;). looking at my 60' times now i could have gone sub 16 stock :blink:.


what = "a few orhter minor things"? 14.3 with bolt ons is pretty damn fast. thats equal ALMOST to an R with bolt ons
 
Originally posted by pissedoffsol@Jun 20 2003, 12:03 AM
be that as it may- its your money, do what ever the fuck you want with it.
Click to expand...

Yup, and this is a severely tired argument that doesn't matter when you start modding both engines. It's not even worth my time to write a long-ass reply.
 
92b16vx, you want to fedex me that GSR engine swap. 500 for the swap, 1000 for shipping, 500 for your work.
 
VTEC + boost = not all that great. Vtec cams are meant to be N/A. I'll take a non-vtec with turbo cams anyday. :p


that is actually a really good idea , asmall
 
VTEC + boost = not all that great. Vtec cams are meant to be N/A. I'll take a non-vtec with turbo cams anyday. :p


that is actually a really good idea , asmall
 
Originally posted by asmallsol@Jun 20 2003, 03:40 PM
92b16vx, you want to fedex me that GSR engine swap. 500 for the swap, 1000 for shipping, 500 for your work.
Click to expand...

I'm sure if you were serious we could work something out. And I am trying to get time to go to the salvage yard, so I can see what he has. Containers run about $600-$1000 to ship a car, so it would be about the same space for a few motors, then you gotta get it shipped from the port to your location, hmotors is sounding better and better.
 
Originally posted by liquid00meth@Jun 20 2003, 10:23 AM
VTEC + boost = not all that great. Vtec cams are meant to be N/A. I'll take a non-vtec with turbo cams anyday. :p
Click to expand...

only because its harder and more expensive to tune. but given sufficient funding, vtec + b00st ownz.
 
The only hard part sounds like the port pick up thing. Seriously, It would probally save me 500-1000. I just have no idea how to arange the port pick up. I would need to save up maybe another 2-300 to make the whole thing work out.

send me a postal code. I am pretty sure fedex can ship palets.
 
Originally posted by liquid00meth@Jun 19 2003, 12:43 PM
Part of the point is that they are the exact same motor 80% of the rev range, and the GSR is only slightly better for the last 20
Click to expand...

I came in this ridiculus post late but yeah, rational thinking is needed.

Yeah, what part of the rev range are you in when you are racing? the top end right..... So yeah, if you have a good clutch, can shift fast and etc then you won't drop out of the powerband and 20 extra whopping hp at the top of the powerband(which you are in) is like night and fucking day.

If you have rode in an ls equipped civic you will soon to find out it goes up from 1-5k a lot faster then 5-7k, because they lack the top end, and yeah the top end is everything y0 when it comes to actual drag racing. That is where turbo comes in my friend for the ls.
 
no no no hes right if youre a dumb ass and can't tune a car worth shit youre right Vtec+Boost=not all that great

a quote from Honda Builders handbook

the first pull of the night registered 211HP at 14PSI everything looked good so Rob bumped up the timing 2 degrees at higher RPM and added more fuel the engine should have made more power then that but none of the parameters looked bad ecept the power thatss when it dawned on rob that the Vtec wasnt being activated ith Vtec activated the power jumped to 405HP inlet temperature peaked at 120degrees F rob thought this was pretty damned good considering that water is the only thing circulating through the intercooler with the 405HP pull rob noticed he was getting near the end of the injector so he pumped up the fuel pressure to add more fuel with less duty cycle a little more fine tuning of the fuel and timing curves on the DFI then we added more ice to the intercooler water and were ready for the next pull at higher boost the final pul of the night stunned us all with 19PSI we recorded an almost effortless 477hp at 7500RPM

thats was with GSR motor with stock Crank and Stock cams

211HP to 405 with only adding more fuel and 2degrees of timing Vtec owns

Tempest put out a tad over 400WHP to the wheels of a B18B then swaped to a GSR motor becuase they wanted more power and the B18B was just not worth building up anymore


BTW this book was copyrighted almost 8 years ago think about all the gound breaking they did back then its not like now when you can buy a turbo kit anywhere
 
:thumbsup: That is some damn good workin on proving a damn good point Jeffie!

Can I get a :woo: for jeffie?
 
Originally posted by jeffie7@Jun 20 2003, 09:11 PM
no no no hes right if youre a dumb ass and can't tune a car worth shit youre right Vtec+Boost=not all that great

a quote from Honda Builders handbook

the first pull of the night registered 211HP at 14PSI everything looked good so Rob bumped up the timing 2 degrees at higher RPM and added more fuel the engine should have made more power then that but none of the parameters looked bad ecept the power thatss when it dawned on rob that the Vtec wasnt being activated ith Vtec activated the power jumped to 405HP inlet temperature peaked at 120degrees F rob thought this was pretty damned good considering that water is the only thing circulating through the intercooler with the 405HP pull rob noticed he was getting near the end of the injector so he pumped up the fuel pressure to add more fuel with less duty cycle a little more fine tuning of the fuel and timing curves on the DFI then we added more ice to the intercooler water and were ready for the next pull at higher boost the final pul of the night stunned us all with 19PSI we recorded an almost effortless 477hp at 7500RPM

thats was with GSR motor with stock Crank and Stock cams

211HP to 405 with only adding more fuel and 2degrees of timing Vtec owns

Tempest put out a tad over 400WHP to the wheels of a B18B then swaped to a GSR motor becuase they wanted more power and the B18B was just not worth building up anymore


BTW this book was copyrighted almost 8 years ago think about all the gound breaking they did back then its not like now when you can buy a turbo kit anywhere
Click to expand...

well, they also turned up the boost...and turned on vtec...and put ice in the ic water...gave more fuel...hmmmm.....

that is NOT a stock b18c1 if they are starting to tune it @ 14 psi... it would have been nice if they did another run with the advanced timing/more fuel/vtec/ice at 14 psi to compare it to what it orignally put out. or if they tried to run 19 on the original setup... those numbers kinda lie. im not saying that they are not impressive...cause they are ;), but they are slightly decieving

i think the origianl intent of this post was to say that if you have $3500 to spend, the b18b is a better deal than the more expensive b18c1.... of course with unlimited funds EITHER could be built to be totaly bad ass... but last time i check money money still doesnt grow on trees, and not everyone can aford to do a turbo/crazyass NA setup.
 
Originally posted by 98integrals@Jun 20 2003, 10:22 PM
but last time i check money money still doesnt grow on trees, and not everyone can aford to do a turbo/crazyass NA setup.
Click to expand...

nope but it does grow on plants, moneys basically made of cotton, thats y it doesnt fall a part in the wash like paper. :p
 
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