turbo on a budget

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Originally posted by beerbongskickass@May 11 2004, 04:33 PM

Your statement that they are worthless and worse than having no intercooler at all is not true and just ignorant. If anybody believes that statement they are just as ignorant as you are. :roll:
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The only reason I'm still replying is not to further your knowledge, becuase you're too far gone into the "me too" crowd to have a clue. I'm doing this for the guy that started this thread, and for those that are on the fence.

I'm about to head out for dinner, but I promise you, by the end of the week, I'll post some mathmatical formulas that prove that the johnnyracer IC is worse than none at all. My statement is as such:

The IC in question will cool the charge for approximately two full gear pulls. Once you're in 3rd gear, the IC is heat soaked. Once it's heat soaked, it will not cool the charge any more. Once it's heat soaked, it becomes a restriction. Once it becomes a restriction it adds to the heat. Once it adds to the heat already produced by a turbo that's overworking by 4 PSI, you have a condition that's worse than having no IC at all. Here's some approximate numbers to give you an idea what I mean... I'll post factual numbers later on...

A turbo has an outlet temp of 200° at 6 PSI, and without an IC, this is the charge temp the engine sees. Now let's add that wonderful IC and see what happens... The turbo has to produce an additional 4 PSI to overcome the pressure drop of the IC, so the outlet temp is now 265°. Because the IC has a poor cross sectional area, and because it's so long, the charge temp will only drop to 180°, but will lose 4 PSI in the process. This happens for two gears at WOT. After that, the IC is an interheater. The turbo is working at 10 PSI and 265°, and after going through the heat soaked IC and being heated further by the restriction, we're upwards of 300° charge temps in the intake manifold.

Again, these numbers are based on what I've seen turbos over the years produce, and will vary from turbo to turbo and IC to IC, but I'm willing to bet that they're not too far off of what's happening.

Still wonder why the guy was able to hit a 12 second run? Well, a JR supercharger puts out around 280° charge temps at 10 PSI, and I'm sure you've heard of at least one 12 second supercharged B- powered 4th gen Civic... I can promise you that if that guy took his IC off and ran the turbo straight to the intake manifold, his power levels or times wouldn't get worse.

Anyway... factual scientific math will come later this week. I'm off to dinner.
 
makes sense.

makes you want to go buy the most expensive most efficient ic on the market.


BUT

why do you just get an ic out of a juck yard?
Your engine will not no that it is used, and its waaaaaay cheaper, and an ic out of another car proves that it works well for stock boost numbers...right? i mean people who biult the eclipse at mitsubichi are definitly not guessing. they know what they are doing. they produce high grade materials....right?

feel free to correct me if i am wrong, i am just using logic



also
beerbong... a turbo b20/vtec should be running 12 in a crv, let alone a civic
 
Logic is rare these days. beer bong guy must be a working for johnnyrace.

Edit: The original poster said he has a jdm d15b. It is a vtec engine, not a d15b7.
 
Loco, thankyou for (finally) gracing this thread with some useful math.

This thread: https://hondaswap.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36689 might provide a little background about why what Loco has to say is important. (although it too gets rather argumentative...)

I'm a pragmatist. In essence, that means I look for practical solutions. I try to understand the world aroud me and deal with things as they are, not as I would like them to be or how they "should" be.

Tonyd0821, I'm really bothered by your statement:
"budget" and "turbo" can not and should not be synonymous.
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There are three reasons why the statement bothers me. First and foremost, it doesn't accurately reflect reality. Kids (used loosely) want fast cars. Turbochargers are one of the current buzzwords in honda performance. You can make statements like the one above all you want, but it isn't going to change the fact that kids are going to do it. You can tell kids to use a rubber, you can tell kids to wait to fuck till they're older, and the US still has among the highest teen pregnancy rates of the western world. Harm reduction is a much more sane policy than ignoring the problem (in this case, poorly informed kids making poor choices while assembling a turbo system) if you ask me because it deals with a problem that exists without wishing it away with lofty ideological statements.

The second reason that I am bothered by your statement is that there are DIY/junkyard turbo setups that lasted a long time (years), made good power and made their owners happy. Example: Gary + Randy's turbo CRXes

[url='http://thenew.gamesbbs.com/~turbosi/']http://thenew.gamesbbs.com/~turbosi/[/url]
i learned from first hand experience.
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Tonyd0821, what I see from this is that you learned that the corners you chose to cut on a budget didn't work out so well.

The third reason that your statement bothers me is that it does not reflect one of the most basic and crucial things to remember when properly engineering a given system, be it a turbocharged motor or a paperclip. Engineering is about compromise. You can't always get titanium beams to build your bridge out of so you use steel and reinforce them more. If you sleeve a motor, the sleeves can sometimes crowd the coolant jackets surrounding them, leading to a motor that has a tendency to overheat easier. If you make a rod more lightweight by removing material, you reduce its strength. Why do I bring this up? Your statement that "budget" and "turbo" don't belong together does not reflect the existence of compromise in design. By your logic, junkyard / DIY turbo people that use OEM turbo car parts that are obviously substandard are guaranteed to blow up their motors. (Ok, I'm reading into your statements a little bit. I'm keeping this professional, not personal so play along ok?) How do companies like Subaru, Saab, Mitsubishi and Volvo that have a lot of turbo cars as a part of their line manage to avoid going bankrupt from warranty replacement when they use so many substandard parts? I'll tell you the answer, and it is one word: compromise.

With that out of the way, there is a legimate problem at hand here. There are lots of people on limited budgets that will find a way to have a turbocharged car. I have around $4000 in my B18B turbo CRX (car, mounts, swap, turbo, ic, piping, injectors, exhaust, management, bigger brakes front+back, fiberglass hood, cripsy 91 Si seats... :)), and I've already broken some shit... (and beat many "fast" cars.) I will not argue at all that reliability is certainly harder to achieve than speed. Why don't we focus on trying to solve the more difficult problem of "reliable turbo on a budget" rather than dismissing it? Compromises will be key, but learning to make good choices on what to compromise on is not easy.

I'm going to be looking at replacing my starion IC with a more capable IC. I paid $50 for the starion IC, and welded new tanks on it. I wasn't planning on running more than 7psi of boost initially. It seemed like an acceptable compromise at the time even with its CRAP efficiency and high pressure drop. It doesn't now, as I'm looking at different goals.

I looked hard at both the johnnyracecar and customcoach intercoolers when I was piecing my setup together, and I was nervous about pressure drop and efficiency. I'd really like to hear more about how you tested Locohonkey. I don't have a manometer, but I was wondering if that's the only method to make measurements? Could i run my WG directly off the turbo and then run the WG off the manifold and compare peak boost levels to get an approximate idea of the pressure drop of an intercooler/charge pipe setup? What tangible, practical criteria can the average person use to evaluate intercoolers?

$200 is a decent price mark. It's enough money to be able to buy someting. It's not enough money to be a HUGE investment. If all you had to spend was $200, what would you do and WHY? If you wouldn't get anything at all, WHY? Would you save for an air-water? Would you save for a more expensive air-air?

Because I'm good with electronics and I could build an injector controller pretty easily, I've also looked at getting a 8 injector JG manifold and running 4 injectors for fuel and 4 injectors for water/methanol mix. Water injection is a whole different can of worms than air-air intercoolers. You lose combustion mixture heat heating water present, you lose combustion mixture temperature because of the heat of vaporization as liquid droplets turn into vapor, you gain (at a micromolecular level) a buffer by decreasing the statistical probability that a fuel molecule will collide with an oxygen atom with enough energy to overcome the activation energy of combustion and start a spontaneous combustion event (detonation). If you put hot air in, you will have issues. How does water injection compare to intercooling in terms of efficiency, effectiveness in varying conditions and ability to scale to "hotter" situations?

Lets try to get this discussion back on track. All the hateful, personal attacks in the forced induction forum lately have really started to hurt the signal/noise ratio of this place. Everyone will benefit from grounded, rational discussion. Everyone will benefit from learning how to discern effective parts from hyped parts. Everyone will benefit from learning how to solve a difficult problem within a tight budget. And everyone will benefit from learning to exchange ideas without insults...

edit: fixed typos, fixed spelling, fixed formatting.
 
Originally posted by driverunknown@May 11 2004, 11:19 PM
The original poster said he has a jdm d15b. It is a vtec engine, not a d15b7.
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im not sure, it looks like there is a vtec controller mount, but it has been capped and sealed. if it helps any the block reads d15b and that is it the pistons are flat and have 4 inlets each in them, the spark plug inlets dwell more on the intake side, while the vavle cover doesn't say vtec on it.

BUT...
that is all about to change as soon as i find the right size timming belt for my mini me swap.

so is the starion a worthy ic.
 
just adding my 2 cents...

weve got a few guys on the mirage board that have swapped from johnny ICs to starions... because they are better... loco is right about them acting backwards later on in the gears, and if i can find it again ill post up some thermocouple results from a friend that has a built turbo 1.8L from north east auto designs in maine.

the starions looks tons better anyway. ill be running just a basic 1g DSM sidemount... cheap and budget but enough to work. B)
 
Oh yeah the starions look much better lol... :roll:

compare.jpg


compare2.jpg
 
So now efficiency is determined by looks? Sorry man factual scientific data works, opinions of appearance don't.

And Radnulb, the point Dochh22a4 was trying to make is that you state that that thread is a reason why Ji's knowledge would be useful in this thread, yet he didn't even post in the thread you linked.
 
Originally posted by beerbongskickass@May 12 2004, 09:12 PM
Oh yeah the starions look much better lol... :roll:
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You are an asshat. Looks don't determine performance. Otherwise, front mount intake IC look-a-likes would give you a bajillion horsepower. You make me embarassed to be from western Washington.
 
I give up on meaningful technical discussion here.

Who cares if Ji didn't post in THAT thread? THIS thread is about intercooler efficiency and talking shit. THAT thread was about turbo efficiency and talking shit. If you read between the lines a little bit, turbo efficiency, mass air flow, CFM of airflow, etc. discussed in the thread linked are the thermodynamics background on why excessive pressure drop from an IC is bad news. Pressure drop from an intercooler being bad news is one of the main things cited by Loco Honkey in regards to why the Johnny Racecar ICs suck. Put pieces together with information from another thread. Not a new concept.

I'd still like a meaningful response to some of the things I raised in my last post, but I'm sure as hell not holding my breath considering how things seem to be going.
 
Your guys are retarded lol. I never once said the way an intercooler looks has anything to do with the performance. Read it again if you don't understand.

Here's what I do know. After racing my car hard I can get out and feel the charge pipe before the intercooler and it's warm, I can then feel the charge pipe after the intercooler and it's cold. That must mean it's doing something right? It's supposed to cool the air going into the engine right? If I didn't have my intercooler there, all that air going into my engine would have been warm. So I don't see how having no intercooler would be better than what I have right now. I don't really care though because it works just fine on my car. $175 for a brand new FMIC... can't beat that with a stick.

"radnulb" also brought up the good point that many people have ran DIY/junkyard kits with these so called "shitty" parts for a long time without problems. If what "loco honkey" says is true then I guess my motor should be blowing up anytime now lol...
 
Originally posted by radnulb@May 13 2004, 02:11 AM
I give up on meaningful technical discussion here.
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Pretty much. I'm not even going to bother with the math now. It's all about looks and what fills the bumper. Fuck it. Run whatever you feel like. I'm done with this fucking board. Just because what I say goes against popular opinion (it's just that- opinion), doesn't mean I'm wrong. I'll bullshit in Members, but I *NEVER* talk out my ass in here. If that's what you think, go back to swinging from everyone's nuts over on Honda Tech.
 
Originally posted by beerbongskickass@May 13 2004, 02:55 AM
Your guys are retarded lol. I never once said the way an intercooler looks has anything to do with the performance. Read it again if you don't understand.
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Well, what the fuck are we supposed to do... you say "Oh yeah, the Starions LOOK so much better..." and then you post two pictures. What the fuck, man? What the fuck do you want from us? Are we supposed to glean flow rates and pressure drops from that no- brained post? From the content your festering belch of wisdom contained, I'd say that you're more concerned with LOOKS than anything else. This shit might fly on Honda Tech, but not here. Know why? Becuase I'm right and you're wrong and there's not a fucking thing you'll ever be able to post to prove otherwise. You've had more than a chance. You've posted nothing but insults, pictures, and speculation. Go re- read this thread and see how many people are saying you're right. There's only one. You.
 
Originally posted by Loco Honkey@May 13 2004, 01:05 PM
Go re- read this thread and see how many people are saying you're right. There's only one. You.
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:owned:

i say do whatever the fuck you wanna do wit your shit. but if Ji's got evidence to back up his shit, then hell i'd think that he'd be more then right. you can't necessarily go by what other people's experience's are. I understand both of you guy's point of view but seeing as how i don't know shit about thermodynamic-this or heat equations-that, I'ma listening to the muthafucka that actually can back his shit up.

my 2 cents. that is all.
 
honestly i think that in the heat of an argument is where the best answers come out. when u prove someone wrong u dont stop becaue it takes to long to type u go all out and provide as much info as pos to make the other guy look like a dick and i enjoy it
 
dude, drop it ji. you owned this guy so hard that its painfull watching you rip the last remaining few strands of flesh from his 6 foot wide asshole.

:lol:
 
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