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turbo or N/a

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by powerdriverh22, Apr 13, 2006.

  1. powerdriverh22

    powerdriverh22 Senior Member

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    ive been debating over the past 6 months or so about what i should do. should i turbo the car or make it all motor. im lookin to spend about 3k. give or take some just kinda what im shooting for. looking for 240-260whp....but more importantly im lookin for good track times. im wanting to run mid low 13. id be pretty happy with a 13.5 here is my current set up

    94 accord
    jdm h22
    hondata s200
    limited slip
    intake
    cat back.

    on two bummed out axles(no launches. roll out and go) and stock tires the car went 14.85,14.87, 14.85. these were also on a drive way tune. they car hasnt actually been to a dyno to get dialed in.

    so to achieve my goals what do you all think would be a good route to go?

    thanks guys
     
  2. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator VIP

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    you can pull off your goals with a lighter flywheel and a kick ass NA setup.

    i dont know about 3k...im putting about 4500 in mine to make it run that high and then im probably gonna run nitrous at the track.

    the turbo kit alone might run you 3k and you still have to deal with ring lands. if you go NA you get a BUILT motor that can handle about anything you wanna throw at you.

    get a good tune and youll be good to go. ive heard of h22s making 250 with new cams (stage 3 crower...probably not good for a dd) new pistons, overbored, sleeved, oversized valves and ITBs.

    thats a lot tho...your prolly looking at 230 Wheel with 93 octane...dropping the itbs
     
  3. powerdriverh22

    powerdriverh22 Senior Member

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    what are you doing to your car?

    cause for 3300 i could have a fully built head, intake mani, tb, and a good header (lookin at 900-1000 for the header) so im interested in where the other 1200 is going in on your car...possibly the bottom end?

    and as far as the turbo goes i can put together a kit for 2500-2800. im not about to buy one of those fmax or drag kits.
     
  4. jimboburgess

    jimboburgess Go fast, Go Cheap

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    Turbo would put you exactly wear you want to be.

    but with a bigger cam and a stepped up fuel system/ignition you may achieve your goal too

    either way get good sitcky tires and that'll improve your times regardless

    does an h23 head swap raise the compression at all?
    that could be a possible route
     
  5. get_nick

    get_nick These snozzberries taste like snozzberries... VIP

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    your first concern should be swapping out those axles. extra power doesn't do any good if you are crashing on the freeway because your axles seized up. get the maintenence done first.

    after that, you should just do a bolt on turb kit and invest in some good tires. if you want to just run at the track, look into drag radials. save some money for tuning though. you will get there with the tubo kit though.
     
  6. powerdriverh22

    powerdriverh22 Senior Member

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    oh ya ive got new axles and nitto neo gens are on the way along with some dr's...so im not trying to skimp on that stuff. im also getting some traction bars fab'd up. so as far as drive train i should be pretty good.

    im not about to loose my vtec lol. im going to have the compression raised by welding the combustion chambers. if i were to go all motor
     
  7. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Drag racing = run a turbo setup that will survive on the stock block. Cheap and easier to make big power up top.
     
  8. get_nick

    get_nick These snozzberries taste like snozzberries... VIP

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    turbo is the only way to go. it's way more expensive to do an all motor h22 than all motor b series. just turbo it. the amount it would take to build it all motor you could have more power to the wheels with the turbo and more money in your pocket because you didn't waste it with going NA.
     
  9. powerdriverh22

    powerdriverh22 Senior Member

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    just curious but how is a turbo cheaper? i can build a kit for 2600-2700 but all motor for 2400-2500.

    and does higher wheel hp really matter. my tuner has a 94 civic hatch with a k24 and runs 11.6 @ 120. its all motor and puts down 260 whp, and his buddy puts 500 on a bseries turbo civic and runs high tens. so im lookin for more than just heresay yall feel me. im not really concerned about money...ill spend what i need to...nor am i worried about hp numbers...just time slips. i can have 700 hp but if i only run a 15 no on is gonna care. lol
     
  10. get_nick

    get_nick These snozzberries taste like snozzberries... VIP

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    well if you already have lsd and good tires you are halfway there. all motor is going to get expensive when you can just slap on a turbo. plus, if you blow the NA motor you have to start all over. if you blow the stock motor you can get a block for cheap and just swap the turbo.

    where are you going to get parts for all motor for 2500. you are going to need pistons, rods, cams, headwork etc. for h22 parts you are looking at upwards of 1500 in head parts alone. i guess just look for what is in your budget. ask Brian, NA is the expensive way to go slow. turbo will save time to. you can bolt it on and tune it in a few hours versus a couple days of teardown and buildup in an NA setup.

    basically it's up to you though. if you want all motor, do it. but the easier way to build a drag car on a budget, slap a turbo on it and tune it. you are done.
     
  11. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator VIP

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    ITBs
     
  12. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Yes, it matters, but power curve and how you drive it matters a lot more. If you have a turbo setup that's so big that you're making 500whp, but it takes forever to spool- the all motor car with the full power curve will pull away. You just need a smaller turbo to beef up your midrange.

    So... no, peak power isn't the most important thing, but it plays a much larger role in drag racing than in all other types of racing. It's all about the curve.

    By the way, there's a HUGE difference in power requirements for running high 10s versus mid/high 11s.
     
  13. powerdriverh22

    powerdriverh22 Senior Member

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    oh ya for sure the faster you go the the more hp you need exponentionaly. to go all motor you dont have to build the bottom end. so sleeves, pistons, and rods are not needed. not for what im doing anyway. the head work will cost me around 1300 from portflow. ive done my research on prices.

    so far the consensus is that turbo will get me better times at the track?
     
  14. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    To go all motor and make ACTUALl power, you DO have to build the bottom end - you are going to want to extend your usable range, and that involves spinning the motor faster, which requires a built bottom end. Does the 1300 include cams/springs/ti retainers? How mild/wild is the porting going to be? Keep in mind that a good porter will port a head for a specific application, be it turbo or NA, topend power or midrange, you get the idea. I wouldn't recommend giving the head to anyone without knowing exactly what you want.

    I say turbo it, but then again, I've heard that turbos and h22s don't go together well without building the bottom end first, but then, I'm not an h22 guy. Good luck on your build. Are you gonna drag race, circuit, or autocross? It makes a big difference on how the car and engine get built, so set some goals and go after them. Power goals are lame imo, kinda like pissing contests.
     
  15. powerdriverh22

    powerdriverh22 Senior Member

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    im a drag racer. the head would be sent to portflow, they specalize in honda heads. i still dont see why everyone says you have to build the bottom end. my goal is 230 whp. if i went boost id be lookin at 260 to 300 on an unbuilt bottom end. i understand why you build, but for my application which is a dd and my weekend car there isnt much need to build the bottom end. it will be very easy to achieve my goals with just the headwork and im, tb, header, and suspension which everway i decide to go. but with turbo ill have to make more power than i will all motor to run the same times.
     
  16. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Yes, you do still need to build the bottom end to go fast all motor. 11:1 compression is just piddly shit. Sure, you can make power with more timing, but not as much as if you get your compression really close to 13:1 and have a good tune with that. Sustained higher revs require stronger and lighter bottom end components too.

    The H22 will definitely behave fine on stock internals with boost well past 230whp. 300-350whp is the norm with a stock internal H22 boost setup.

    Read above. You can make 230whp on the stock bottom end, but you're going to have to rev high to get it. I would still build it.

    As for turbo, no- you won't have to make more power than all motor to get the same times. Just size the turbocharger correctly and learn to drive it properly and you'll be every bit as fast. Most people just go way too big on their turbos, and then they don't know how to set the car up correctly to harness the torque jump at the line. Get that right and you'll be just as fast as your all motor buddy out of the hole.
     
  17. powerdriverh22

    powerdriverh22 Senior Member

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    i understand your reasoning. but there i dont understand everything that is being said. i dont understand how a turbo car with 230hp will beat an all motor car with 230hp.

    i also want a reliable car, not saying that turbos arent reliable. so 13:1 compression is out of the question. my aim will be 12:1 if i go all motor. hell if i go turbo im not going to change mine with pistons. ill keep it higher and run lower boost.
     
  18. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Pretty much all aftermarket pistons you're going to find for the H22 are going to require a resleeve, and that gets pretty expensive. For the same cost, you can have more power with a turbo setup on the stock internals.

    If you don't understand everything that is being said, go read up on what a power curve and torque curve consist of, then look at some turbo vs all motor dyno graphs. If you run a small turbo and spool up FAST, you'll have more torque out of the hole than an all motor car with the same power. Make that power stick and you'll be faster in the quarter mile.

    As far as 13:1 not being reliable- it can be. It's all in the tuning. 12:1 will still make awesome power though, if you know what you're doing.
     
  19. powerdriverh22

    powerdriverh22 Senior Member

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    ya i know that the h series needs to be resleeved to install pistons. i know all about it. ive been researching this stuff for about 2 years. im no newbie :) . but every graph ive ever seen the all motor car has a much better midrange. top end its been pretty close.

    i just want some good times :ph34r:
     
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