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i guess he told us :lol:

what if's dont count and the tables arent turned, this is the way it is
 
Originally posted by lowandslow@May 11 2004, 11:21 PM
all were doing is trying to help, unsuccessfuly i admit, but because they are resisting it. we drop food, try to keep as much peace as possible. theyre continuing this war, they caused this war

Iraq did not cause the war!

That's like saying the Civil War was about slavery.

Al-Queda started this shit, not the country of Iraq.

We can just as easily say "Fuck you guys, we're going home" and leave. Let them rebuild their shit.
 
Originally posted by Havok@May 11 2004, 11:27 PM
We can just as easily say "Fuck you guys, we're going home" and leave. Let them rebuild their shit.

if we leave, were vulnerable...for god knows what

is al-queda in iraq, are the members iraqi? and iraq is doing so much to help prevent this...

and havok, seems how this is mostly u and i, haha, im not saying ur wrong man, its just the shit that they are doing is gruesomely more violent than us, it doesnt need to be done that way. remember, IMO
 
This war is never going to end. For every 10 terrorist killed there are 100's more being recruited with the same hatred for Americans. It's not just Al-Queda anymore, anytime they show the burning remains of a US convoy that was ambushed there are scenes of Iraqi youth celebrating US casualties.
 
Originally posted by Havok@May 11 2004, 10:55 PM
lmao, I love how you had to edit in about us being smarter than you, which proves you missed it, and thus are "slow" or "special."

Arguing with you two is the equivalent of slamming my dick into a door--It would be entertaining to others, but I would be degrading myself by allowing myself to engange in such idiotic acts.

Feel free to argue with me, but you are wrong.

Way to avoid the entire point of the post by calling us ignorant instead of debating the facts before your eyes.
 
Originally posted by NotUrAverage_Si@May 11 2004, 11:43 PM
This war is never going to end. For every 10 terrorist killed there are 100's more being recruited with the same hatred for Americans. It's not just Al-Queda anymore, anytime they show the burning remains of a US convoy that was ambushed there are scenes of Iraqi youth celebrating US casualties.

:yes:

exactly the stuff im talking about
 
Originally posted by lowandslow+May 12 2004, 12:10 AM-->
NotUrAverage_Si
@May 11 2004, 11:43 PM
This war is never going to end. For every 10 terrorist killed there are 100's more being recruited with the same hatred for Americans. It's not just Al-Queda anymore, anytime they show the burning remains of a US convoy that was ambushed there are scenes of Iraqi youth celebrating US casualties.

:yes:

exactly the stuff im talking about

:no:

Look at your posts. When the US does some shit, I see no signs or protest, but then Iraqi's do something, and you jump on their balls. Either have an unbiased post or don't post at all. You cannot turn your head when the US soldiers do soemthing, but then scream like a redneck when Iraqi's do something similar.
 
Ok so what the soldiers did to those fuckheads was wrong, funny as all hell when I read about it, but still wrong. But it's NOTHING, not even 1 billionth as bad as decapitating some poor 26 year old guy.
 
Originally posted by revolution8k@May 11 2004, 09:15 PM

What he goes over there and does his job? only to get captured and fucking DECAPITATED on video.


Haha, what do you think his job was?
 
To keep the peace. what do you think he's over there to just run down people without guns and blow their brains out?
 
Originally posted by Havok+May 12 2004, 12:38 AM-->
Originally posted by lowandslow@May 12 2004, 12:10 AM
NotUrAverage_Si
@May 11 2004, 11:43 PM
This war is never going to end. For every 10 terrorist killed there are 100's more being recruited with the same hatred for Americans. It's not just Al-Queda anymore, anytime they show the burning remains of a US convoy that was ambushed there are scenes of Iraqi youth celebrating US casualties.

:yes:

exactly the stuff im talking about

:no:

Look at your posts. When the US does some shit, I see no signs or protest, but then Iraqi's do something, and you jump on their balls. Either have an unbiased post or don't post at all. You cannot turn your head when the US soldiers do soemthing, but then scream like a redneck when Iraqi's do something similar.

It's different when the shoe's on the other foot, isn't it?

From the torture pictures to the information that this is not an isloated incident, I can see why we are hated so badly. We've ripped down the government of a sovreign nation, occupied the land with force and imprisoned their people, guilty or not. What we've done has given them a solid reason to hate us. It's no longer about their religion's views or what a select few people say about us. It's about what we've done. These people have seen and experienced these horrors, and they hate us for the same reason we hate those who did a Henry VIII on one of our men.

They are now fueled by the same fire that fuels us...

I agree that the beheading of a person is wrong, AMERICAN OR OTHERWISE. I agree that the torture of a person is wrong, IRAQI OR OTHERWISE. It's wrong no matter who does the act. However, we have given the world an image that we are no better than the people who were in control of the country before we arrived. If our intention was to show these people that their life is better since we took control, well we just dashed all hopes.

I'm not going to go into how right or wrong this war was, but everyone here must admit that what our soldiers did was sick, immoral and flat out wrong. If pictures of Iraqi soldiers torturing American POWs were released, you'd be inclined to behead the first Iraqi you got your hands on, right? Well, they're just as human as you are and feel the same way.

An eye for an eye will eventually make everyone blind. This shit has got to stop.
 
this post has gone to hell...yet it embodies everything america is about, FREE SPEECH...ppl have their opinions, opinions CANNOT BE right or wrong, they're simply opinions...some say fuck iraqi's (i agree partly), some say fuck americans (i disagree wholeheartedly), but those are just my OPINIONS...and i agree, not all iraqi's are inherently evil, but any involved in the shit they've done to OUR country's soldiers and citizens should burn, and burn slowly. and yes, some americans are taking it over the edge w/ their little pictures...but like everyone is saying, they're not DECAPITATING PPL ON VIDEO!! but this argument between all the ppl here is USELESS, no one is going to change anyone's opinions, because opinions are based on a person's convictions and morals, and convictions and morals will remain the same (for the most part) no matter who comes at you, but being beligerent and mean and calling names is a little bit juvenile don't you think? that's not the way to change someone's opinion about anything...you lay out the cold hard FACTS that opinions are based on, not say "ooh i'm smarter than you so i'm automatically right." this thread started out w/ rev8k stating and OPINION, and lowandslow agreed, havok disagrees, big fuckin deal, let everyone have their opinion, this is AMERICA isn't it? some ppl don't know how well we have it here, and take it for granted...oh and just so you know and can't call me "special" or "slow" i got a 1330 on my SAT's, and i can prove that to you if you really want me to. God Bless America and all its citizens and soldiers, no matter what race, color, creed, or OPINIONS.
 
The entire war is just dumb now and although this one even with the detainys is very small, it have been projected everywhere and Totally destroys our crediability.


We start this war saying "Oh no, WMDs are right there" They wern't there. Then we justify our who war on "well were doing it for humanity, to stop the touture" Well, I am sure that it has stoped alot, and the country is better off, however, with this one SMALL event, it makes us look like hypocrates, no matter how isolated this even was.
 
I just want to start off buy saying that anyone who thinks that the Al-Qaeda just recently starting executing Americans because of the tapes is just STUPID. *MR. High IQ* Al-Qaeda and Sadam Hussein were killing off Americans and their own people way before we even invaded the damn country. So saying that they hate us only because we invaded their country is ludacris. Secondly, torture is nothing new to these fuckers anyway, they always have and will keep up their sickening acts up, until every last one is dead or in prison.

As for the pics of the Iraqi Soldiers being humiliated, yes it was wrong, but to blame Donald Rumsfield or any high ranking official is ignorant. That is like saying Bush is responsible because some guy got butt-fucked in jail. He has no control over something a select few do. He can say treat the prisoners well and with respect, but no matter what he had said those dumbfucks woul have done it anyway.

Also the war was very legite if you ask me, if Sadam had nothing to hide why did he not let the UN inspectors look in certain areas. Also we gave Sadam notice of our invasion, don't you think he could have easily destroyed any evidence of WMD, I am sure he could have. Also everyone is complaining we are doing a shit job of rebuilding the government there. Well it is somewhat difficult to switch governments overnight don't you think? And as for the extra combat, there is nothing we can do when people just start shooting at us, are we just supposed to sit and wait till they starve to death? Also you can't anticipate a surprise attack like that, or it would be a surprise would it. Think MR. IQ, you may be smart but you have no common sense IMO.
 
Originally posted by SolReaver+May 12 2004, 01:49 AM-->
revolution8k
@May 11 2004, 09:15 PM

What he goes over there and does his job? only to get captured and fucking DECAPITATED on video.


Haha, what do you think his job was?

To keep the peace. what do you think he's over there to just run down people without guns and blow their brains out?



:no:


Berg was not a soldier or a civilian employee of the Pentagon


Berg owned a company that cleaned and repaired communications towers in Iraq.


Suzanne Berg said her son was in Iraq as an independent businessman.


"He had this idea that he could help rebuild the infrastructure,"



yes thats right he was a civilian contractor who just went over there to help rebuild the fucking country
sure money was probly a good motivator as well... contractors are getting payed pretty big money to go in there and help rebuild
but that does not change the fact that he was just a guy trying to help out


the iraqi captives are soldiers... im not here to argue whether or not the way they were treated is correct or not.... but i am pointing out that there is a MAJOR difference between less than desireable treatment of military captives that you are in the process of interrogating, and cutting off the head of a civilian contractor to "prove a point"
 
i say, all you guys just need to stfu...war is war. Its not supposed to be civil, just, or morally acceptable. Its fucking war! we can't say that cutting off a soldiers head is worse than sexually abusing a soldier. Maybe in the koran, it says that homosexuality means you're going to hell, which in that case would make the latter the worse of the two. we can't say shit, because you know what? we are not there. none of us are fighting over there now. None of us know what the REAL conditions of life are. We just see some shit the media puts out and form our opinions based on what we see, but we dont know what anyone in the war is going through, because again, we are not there. both sides of the war are doing what they were taught and trained to do, destroy the other side, so whos to say either side is wrong?
 
Originally posted by mattcalica@May 12 2004, 04:29 AM
i say, all you guys just need to stfu...war is war. Its not supposed to be civil, just, or morally acceptable. Its fucking war! we can't say that cutting off a soldiers head is worse than sexually abusing a soldier. Maybe in the koran, it says that homosexuality means you're going to hell, which in that case would make the latter the worse of the two. we can't say shit, because you know what? we are not there. none of us are fighting over there now. None of us know what the REAL conditions of life are. We just see some shit the media puts out and form our opinions based on what we see, but we dont know what anyone in the war is going through, because again, we are not there. both sides of the war are doing what they were taught and trained to do, destroy the other side, so whos to say either side is wrong?

HE WASNT A FUCKING SOLDIER
HE WAS A CIVILIAN CONTRACTOR
 
this is a subject, no ones going to win.

remember their still finding out who said there's weapons of mass destruction over in iraq...... :ph34r:
 
Originally posted by lowandslow
Posted: May 12 2004+ 02:38 AM --></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lowandslow
Posted: May 12 2004 @ 02:38 AM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>that is bullshit, and if in fact bush wouldnt make a trade...wtf was he thinking? he's a moron


Because the US doesn't negotiate with terrorist, you know why? Because if we did, than this w0uld become a VERY popular way to fuck us. The descision was not made with glee, or without foresight, it is policy, and a DAMN good one. These people are like children, you say "NO" then go back on your word and say "ok", and you're fucked in the future.

Originally posted by lowandslow
Posted: May 12 2004+ 02:38 AM
--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lowandslow
Posted: May 12 2004 @ 02:38 AM
)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>if i had the final word, i would napalm the whole god damn country; babies, woman, children, everyone. fuck them. burn.

That's why you don't, and you never will.

Originally posted by NotUrAverage_Si
Posted: May 12 2004@ 02:55 AM

Bush needs to order the samething to be done to Iraqi prisoners, video tape it, and send it those fucks.

And that will solve what, your need for bloodshed, so they can do it again? Cycle continues. The people that did this aren't Iraqi "soldiers" They are religious extreme, you know, Fundamentalist, like Billy Graham.

Originally posted by lowansslow
and what about the 'civilian' iraqi's celebrating the burned marines that were dragged thru town and hung from the bridge? adults and kids..yup. and a quote from an interview with a sotre owner about that..."we are glad to kill americans".....yea, thats just like me. so before u deem the iraqi's good ppl, lets think about that

1. They were contractors 2. the area it happened in, yes, you could drop a bomb and probably not hurt anyone that does like Americans, Iraq is a big place, and not all Iraqi, not even close, hate Americans.

Originally posted by Havoc
Both countries are doing shit that is wrong, they both know what they are doing is wrong. Don't try to defend the Americans when they are doing the same shit. You can't defend the US soldiers without defending the Iraqi soldiers

Hardly, there is NO WAY ON EARTH, to compare this to any amount of "dehumanizing" actions that a few American soldiers did, under unknown circumstances. Yes a couple Iraqi have died in prisons, maybe they were killed in a jailbreak, maybe it was because the guard didn't like them, military justice will prevail, sorry if the military system isn't public approved vampire lust satisfying like FOX, or CNN, or Court TV, but it does happen. There is no comparision, or rationalizing extremist cut his head off with a dull knife in the name of Allah, and retribution to an innocent civilian that went there to HELP the people, to some humiliating acts done to some prisoners. There is something fundamentally wrong with those people if being degraded is worse than death.

Originally posted by Havoc
lmao, I love how you had to edit in about us being smarter than you, which proves you missed it, and thus are "slow" or "special."

This doesn't help your argument at all.

Originally posted by Ktanaka
ITS WAR! We are INVADING another country. A SOEIGVERN (sp?) NATION. Of coarse they will do anything nessisary to force us to leave.

Most of Iraq DOESN"T want us to leave, do you know why? I'll get to that later..TBC

Originally posted by Havoc
Al-Queda started this shit, not the country of Iraq.

We can just as easily say "Fuck you guys, we're going home" and leave. Let them rebuild their shit.

No, AlQueda didn't start the war in Iraq, we did, we tried to draw links to them, but failed, that's beside the point. We can not leave Iraq now, for many reasons, the best being that it WILL return to chaos, and nothing will have been done, all the good (and yes, there is lots of it, i'll get to it in a bit) we have done, will be out the window in a week, all the soldiers and civilians will have died for nothing. The "terrorist" will have won, and that CAN NOT happen. Not because of macho American egotism, but because then that will open a door to more attacks, and horrors, just like if we had released the Prisoners they wanted released, America would be in new sights.



Originally posted by Havoc
Look at your posts. When the US does some shit, I see no signs or protest, but then Iraqi's do something, and you jump on their balls. Either have an unbiased post or don't post at all. You cannot turn your head when the US soldiers do soemthing, but then scream like a redneck when Iraqi's do something similar.

There is a MASS outlash against the government for the prisoner "scandal". Talk of the Secretary of Defense redigning, are something that is a very serious issue. But you CAN NOT hold the government, or Rumsfeld, or Bush responsible for any of this. Talk to the Chains of Command at the right level.

Sabz5150
@
From the torture pictures to the information that this is not an isloated incident, I can see why we are hated so badly. We've ripped down the government of a sovreign nation, occupied the land with force and imprisoned their people, guilty or not. What we've done has given them a solid reason to hate us. It's no longer about their religion's views or what a select few people say about us. It's about what we've done. These people have seen and experienced these horrors, and they hate us for the same reason we hate those who did a Henry VIII on one of our men.[/QUOTE] This is outright ignorance and shortsighted rubbish

Sabz5150

If our intention was to show these people that their life is better since we took control, well we just dashed all hopes.[/QUOTE]
No, not really, it doesn't have anything what so ever to do with the improved, yes IMPROVED quality of life MOST Iraqis have experianced since Saddam was removed.

Ok, now my rant. Amerca, while in recent events, has completey followed basic rules of war, Geneva Conventions, and acted responsibilty and professionally (for the most part). We have changed rules of engagement to the point that it has cost soldiers their lives to preserve civilian life in the war against collateral damage. All the while fighting an enemy that is not following any rules WHATSOEVER, they dress in uniforms, fake surrender, arm children and teach them to shoot American Soldiers. They kidnap IRAQIs, and then force other family memebrs to commit suicide bombings, or they will kill their loved ones. They hide in Hospitals, Mosques, fire from crowds, amd use non accepted by the world at large demolitions. They do all this in the name of their religion, and believe they are rewarded in heaven for killing the infidels. They PURPOSEFULLY kidnap, kill, and maim Aperican NON COMBATANTS to "further their cause..

I don't know how many of you have actualy seen teh video, it is bad quality, and sound, ubt it is horrific none hte less. And yes, it does make it hard to seperate ration feelings from blind hatred for this race. The Human race, and hte Iraqi one.
 
As for the good to come to Iraq that I said was coming, here it is...

-Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
-Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
-Over 1500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons that were stored there so education can occur.
-The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from ships faster.
-School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
-The country had it's first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
-The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
-100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed compared to 35% before the war.
-Elections are taking place in every major city and city councils are in place.
-Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
-Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
-Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
-Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
-Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
-An interim constitution has been signed.
-Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq.
-Text books that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

A "back to school" campaign delivered 1,500 kits with book bags, notebooks, pens and pencils that helped 120,000 students in Baghdad return to their classrooms in May 2003. In preparation for the new school year, 1.2 million kits for secondary school students and 4,000 kits for their schools including desks, chairs, blackboards, and bookshelves are arriving in Iraq.
- Malnutrition contributed to high mortality rates in Iraq during Saddam's rule. The food aid for Iraq has continued to supply the public distribution system and has allowed the majority of Iraqis access to food rations. On July 15, the World Food Program reported that nearly 1.5 million metric tons of food, or more than the three months supply required to keep the distribution system operating, have been dispatched to Iraq. An additional 2.2 million metric tons of food will arrive by the end of October. These steps will contribute to reversing malnutrition.
- To date, 22.3 million doses of measles, tuberculosis, hepatitis B, diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, and polio vaccines have been provided, enough to vaccinate 4.2 million children.
- Nearly all Iraqi children have finished their exams from last year and are ready to start a new school year in the fall. All universities are reopened.
- A $53 million program to rehabilitate more than 100 schools and clinics is underway. In the southern region, more than 50 schools are in various stages of rehabilitation. More than 600 schools will be in "like new" condition in time for the beginning of classes.
- Five million revised math and science textbooks will be ready before the start of the school year.
- Saddam Hussein's rhetoric is being removed from Iraqi schoolchildren's textbooks. In the words of Dunia Nabel, a teacher in Baghdad: "We want flowers and springtime in the texts, not rifles and tanks." (The Chicago Tribune, July 31, 2003).
- Ten delivery rooms in hospitals and primary healthcare centers in Basra have been rehabilitated and stocked with essential drugs and medical supplies.
- The juvenile institution for children that was the subject of reports of abuse and appalling conditions under Saddam Hussein has been replaced by a project run by UNICEF and NGOs. Seven orphanages have undergone major building renovations and training for staff.
- Nearly 3,000 soccer balls were shipped on May 30 and another 60,000 balls on their way to Iraq through a private/public partnership and the U.S. soccer community

A New Economy: A new Iraqi economy is being built on the principles of market economics, respect for the rule of law, and transparency.
- Salaries: The CPA regularly pays salaries to those teachers, healthcare workers, soldiers, police, and other public sector employees who have returned to work. Payments of pensions and other emergency payments have also helped to avert a humanitarian crisis. Teachers' salaries, and other key employees' salaries, have increased four-fold over their pay under Saddam Hussein. Some 39,000 electrical workers are back at work. Other sectors show similar encouraging signs.
- Commerce: The marketplace in Baghdad has many goods that were previously unavailable because of sanctions or because they were forbidden under the previous regime. Items such as satellite dishes are now readily available to Iraqis.
- Banks: Banks are open in Baghdad. The CPA is working with Iraqis outside of Baghdad to open banks across the country as soon as possible. In addition, international interest in establishing an Iraqi trade bank has been strong, and proposals from foreign banks are under review for creating this trade facility.
- Food: The CPA has purchased the upcoming wheat and barley crops, helping to meet the country's food needs while supporting farmers. These crops include over 600,000 metric tons of Iraqi wheat and more than 300,000 metric tons of Iraqi barley.
- Loans for Entrepreneurs: A micro-credit facility is now being set up in the South. Credit facilities for the rest of the country are also planned. Iraq's two major banks will start making small and medium sized business loans to help Iraqi entrepreneurs restart their businesses.
- Currency: A unified currency for Iraq has been announced. The exchange of old banknotes for new ones is set to begin October 15.
- Iraqis' Savings: The dinar has maintained its value against the dollar, preserving the dinar-dominated savings of Iraqi citizens.
- Natural Resources: Oil production is increasing, with daily production of crude averaging 1 million barrels in recent days.
-Budget: The budget for the last six months of 2003 is now being executed, and the 2004 budget formulation process has begun

- The Coalition is working to ensure that women play an important role in all parts of the government.
- Three Iraqi women who are members of the new Governing Council are fully engaged in promoting the involvement of women in Iraq's future.
- An esteemed former female Iraqi judge in the Ministry of Justice is undertaking a review of laws, legal practices, and the legal profession in Iraq for ways to increase equality and participation of women.
- The Ministry of Interior conducted an assessment of the former Iraqi Police Force in early April. This resulted in a requirement to target recruitment of women and their inclusion in training offered at all academies. The program will become a reality August 15 when the recruiting drive begins with women as one of the groups targeted for selection.
- The Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs has adopted a policy of equal access to services and benefits for all those eligible, and this policy will ultimately expand services as well as quality to larger numbers of Iraqis including women.
- Iraqi women will have a role in the development of democracy and civil society. A senior administration official from the CPA Democracy and Governance team is conducting outreach activities to involve Iraqi women.
- The Coalition team has held numerous meetings with Iraqi women from all walks of life to hear their concerns and to listen to their ideas for the future development of democracy in their country. In addition, the CPA has met with various women's groups and with international organizations regarding their ideas and efforts to meet the needs of Iraqi women.
- The Coalition helped a group of Iraqi women conduct a conference July 9 that included workshops on the constitution and democracy, legal reform, education, health and social affairs, and economic and employment issues. More than 70 women attended, the majority of whom were Iraqi women experts in such fields as law, academia, medicine, and business.
- Quotas restricting the entry of women into certain university courses have been raised or lifted altogether.
- Iraqi women's organizations are being created to expand opportunities for women to improve their lives and those of their families.

No opinions, just some facts for the haters.
 
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