Upgrading Suspension need advice

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Hmmmmmmmmmm....Ouuuuuuuuuuu :bow:

I need to brush up on my Japanese. They sound awesome but $1400 is a little steep for me. I'll look into them, thanks.
 
Originally posted by adnoh@Jul 1 2005, 02:14 PM
Silkroad's are sick, but for $1400, they are probably the last coilover I'd buy. But that's just me.


by all means. its FAR from the best coilover.

but unless you're willing to spend 1800-4000, zeal's, ohlins, and the likes are just not happeneing.

B, I can't for the life of me, figure out why you think the TEIN's handle like shit.

because i've had better.
when you HAVEN'T had better, you THINK that the Tein's are actually good. They aren't.

would i take them over a GC+koni- certainly.

but they would be the last option i'd chose if i were to do it again.

If you think the rebound is shit, grab a set of TEIN's that you can control the rebound with.


and now you're in the 2000 range. and once again, the tein is the LAST thing i'm looking at.

Done. You are, obviously, entitled to your own opinion, but you are they ONLY person I have ever heard complain about TEIN coilovers. Could it be that you bought a set of Lemon's? I dunno man.....I just don't get it.
[post=519213]Quoted post[/post]​


no, i'm not.

Esolsi will say the same shit.
wildbill will say the same shit.
neonmike will say the same shit.

i have a set, and bill had a set.

you guys don't race/drive hard enough to actually notice the effects. I bet you don't even know what droop steer is.
 
Originally posted by HatchSpeeD@Jul 2 2005, 12:15 AM
YEA! Droop Steer! Bet you don't even know BEATCH!!!























What's droop steer? :dunno:
[post=519405]Quoted post[/post]​

It has to do with suspension travel and turning.
 
droop steer is the exact negative of bump steer.

bump steer is when you hit a bump, and it pulls one way or another because of the different forces on either wheel with one gaining more traction than the other, different toe angle, and all the other genometric forces that may apply.

droop steer is when the suspension unloads, resulting in a pull on the other wheel.

since the tein don't react fast enough to keep the wheel planted on the ground, you get a shit load of droop steer.



http://home.tiscali.be/be067749/58/tc/print.htm

yeah, its for an RC car, but its exactly related.

Less Droop

The car changes direction faster, and corners flatter. It feels generally more responsive and more direct.

Reducing droop is the most effective way to stop your car from traction rolling on high grip tracks


or, if you have a high-grip tire. (remember, that was written for an rc car.)

More Droop

Less internal shock spacers give better handling on bumpy tracks, and more and more consistent traction on difficult tracks.


in other words, droop is awesome for rock crawlers and atv's.

Less droop in front, more at the rear

The car changes direction faster. It turns in very well, but it could lose front traction halfway throught the turn.


got push?

More droop in front, less at the rear

Makes the car brake better. Rear traction feels consistent.


and this is what the tein's feel like. the rear end is usually not the problem-- its the fronts.

which is fine and dandy for braking.

but did you buy your suspension soley for being able to stop quicker, or did you buy it to turn and handel better/turn faster without losing traction?

perhaps on a rear wheel drive drag car, this would be the setup to use.

we're front wheel drive.
and if you're buying tein's to drag with, you might as well buy a hooker and take her fishing.

sure, it might be fun, but in the end, its NOT what you bought it for.

when you droop and unload, the balance gets wack.
the tein can't react fast enough to keep droop in check, and the result is a less-firmly planted car, and a lower time, shittier line, and fighting with the car as the end result.


I'm not just saying all this crap about tein's sucking because i don't like them.
I'm sure their N1 specs are bad ass.

at the same level, i think the SS is a decent STREET suspension. but i would never use it at any competeive event where handeling and performance are the ticket to win.
The onmi's are the same deal-- a STREET suspension. I recommend those over the tiens simply because they are cheaper and an overall better value. Sure, they aren't dampened controlled, but at least the are MATCHED.

The biggest problem with everyone here saying "yo- all the way down is soft like stock, and firm is super hard for racing y0!" don't realize that you need to MATCH the spring rate to the dampening rate. If you don't, the end result is a shitty ride, and crappy handeling. like APC coilovers on stock shocks. it sucks because they aren't matched. KYB AGX's and a prokit ride pretty damn good- why? because they are well MATCHED.

you take the soft setting with the firm spring, and it's bouncy
you take the hard setting with the firm spring, and its a go kart.
some where in between, you have the onmipowers that are matched to their spring rates.

why do you think a LOT of serious autox;ers get CUSTOM VALVED konis to match their CUSTOM SPRING RATE ground controls?

are we on to something here yet?
 
Ahhhhhh...good write. Now here lies the problem with me. I don't know how to custom match spring rates with shock dampening. I've never raced at a track yet but would like to in the future. I'm basically wanting to upgrade my tokico blue/H&R springs to a true coil-over setup. But what you just explained to me, I know down the line I might want that adjustability and a better quality coilover like silk roads. Thanks for the info. I guess for now I might just go for the omni's or whatever I can get the best deal on and then upgrade in the future if I get serious with it.
 
Here's an idea, why don't you hold off for a couple months, save up some money, and get what you really want the first time, instead of buying twice?
 
Originally posted by 92b16vx@Jul 3 2005, 03:33 PM
Here's an idea, why don't you hold off for a couple months, save up some money, and get what you really want the first time, instead of buying twice?
[post=520192]Quoted post[/post]​



exactly...

Sit down and make a plan for exactly what you want... dont buy anything thats not on your plan. It will take longer but you'll be much happier in the long run.
 
Originally posted by HatchSpeeD@Jul 3 2005, 09:59 AM
Ahhhhhh...good write. Now here lies the problem with me. I don't know how to custom match spring rates with shock dampening. I've never raced at a track yet but would like to in the future. I'm basically wanting to upgrade my tokico blue/H&R springs to a true coil-over setup. But what you just explained to me, I know down the line I might want that adjustability and a better quality coilover like silk roads. Thanks for the info. I guess for now I might just go for the omni's or whatever I can get the best deal on and then upgrade in the future if I get serious with it.
[post=520097]Quoted post[/post]​



You either have to know matlab, laplace transforms, and how to adjust dynamic response with these tools, or know someone that has dialed his ride in already and can help you, or just experiment with different setups. My .02 I'm not really a control buff; the only stuff I've done is in the classroom.
 
Originally posted by pissedoffsol@Jul 2 2005, 12:09 AM
droop steer is the exact negative of bump steer.

bump steer is when you hit a bump, and it pulls one way or another because of the different forces on either wheel with one gaining more traction than the other, different toe angle, and all the other genometric forces that may apply.

droop steer is when the suspension unloads, resulting in a pull on the other wheel.

since the tein don't react fast enough to keep the wheel planted on the ground, you get a shit load of droop steer.

and this is what the tein's feel like. the rear end is usually not the problem-- its the fronts.

which is fine and dandy for braking.

but did you buy your suspension soley for being able to stop quicker, or did you buy it to turn and handel better/turn faster without losing traction?

perhaps on a rear wheel drive drag car, this would be the setup to use.

we're front wheel drive.
and if you're buying tein's to drag with, you might as well buy a hooker and take her fishing.

sure, it might be fun, but in the end, its NOT what you bought it for.

when you droop and unload, the balance gets wack.
the tein can't react fast enough to keep droop in check, and the result is a less-firmly planted car, and a lower time, shittier line, and fighting with the car as the end result.


I'm not just saying all this crap about tein's sucking because i don't like them.
I'm sure their N1 specs are bad ass.

at the same level, i think the SS is a decent STREET suspension. but i would never use it at any competeive event where handeling and performance are the ticket to win.
The onmi's are the same deal-- a STREET suspension. I recommend those over the tiens simply because they are cheaper and an overall better value. Sure, they aren't dampened controlled, but at least the are MATCHED.

The biggest problem with everyone here saying "yo- all the way down is soft like stock, and firm is super hard for racing y0!" don't realize that you need to MATCH the spring rate to the dampening rate. If you don't, the end result is a shitty ride, and crappy handeling. like APC coilovers on stock shocks. it sucks because they aren't matched. KYB AGX's and a prokit ride pretty damn good- why? because they are well MATCHED.

you take the soft setting with the firm spring, and it's bouncy
you take the hard setting with the firm spring, and its a go kart.
some where in between, you have the onmipowers that are matched to their spring rates.

why do you think a LOT of serious autox;ers get CUSTOM VALVED konis to match their CUSTOM SPRING RATE ground controls?

are we on to something here yet?
[post=519511]Quoted post[/post]​


Dude, you're comparing apples to oranges. The only choice you have in this price range IS Street Suspension.

The only thing the Omni's have going for them is price. Thats it.

Not to "big up" my SS's, but they are a better coilover by far. You CAN have custom spring rates. You CAN have them revalved and overhauled to handle higher spring rates. You CAN match the springrate to the dampening level. Just because you have dampening control doesn't mean your coilovers are shit because somewhere along the lines between "soft" and "firm" they go out of whack. This technology, as you already know, is so the driver can fine tune what they think is a good balance of spring rate, to shock dampening, dependant on the driving situation. Personally, I drive street, and go lapping a few times a year. I actually DO appreciate the ability to have a "soft" setting on my Teins to drive to and from work, matched or not. And I DO appeciate the ability to crank up the stiffness when I go lapping, and for the power my car makes, the SS's compliment the car very well. But they are still a "Street Suspension". I can turn them into a full race suspension if I want, but to be honest, if I had to ride to and from work in a car that had 10K up front and 8K in the rear, I'd fucking kill myself.

A street suspention is, theoretically, the balance between ride quality and performance. And a good street suspension will not pretend to do one better than the other. In my experiences, having driven multiple street setups, and only a few pure race setups, the Tein SS's are a fantastic street coilover...and thousands of people would be behind me on that. This is why I did my research, asked you guys, and made my decision on them. This is also why I reccomend them. With the Omni's or another type of "matched" coilover, if you don't like the ride quality while daily driving, you're fucked. Too bad. This doesn't by any means make them a bad coilover, it just limits them to a job-specific segment in suspension. This also, in turn, makes them a lack-luster "Street" suspension, because sometimes, the coilover will sacrifice ride quality for performance, or vice-versa.

IMO, if you wan't a "Street" setup, the Tein SS's, or a similar product with similar adjustability, would suit you.
If you wan't a job-specific setup (ex. Lapping, Auto X only), a matched coilover would do the job well, but you sacrifice the choice of being able to adapt your car to the driving situation, which is what a "street" suspention should do.


Not to argue B, but this is what I meant.
 
Check these out....


For under a $1000 you can have a real coilover with 32 levels of dampening, they COME with aluminum pillow mounts, the spring rates are high, in my opinion it's the best coilover you can find for under a G. Don't get me wrong, the omni powers are great, but they can't compare to these....


And btw Brian is totally correct, tein is overated, overpriced, jdm bulshit. They DO ride like shit for the price, and they don't even come with pillow mounts. Comparing a base model tein ($1000 with NO pillow mounts) to even an omnipower is a no brainer.... I would take the omnipower with the pillowmounts and never look back.

P.P.S. - 92b16vx is right as well.... you CAN NOT find a better coilover than the KW variant 3s..... :drool: :) Good call there guy. (leave it to those damn germans to know about suspensions....) :p


Sorry, that first link was direct and the price is kinda high....

Try this one if you want to spend under a grand....
 
Megan racing one of the best?

the number of clicks doesnt matter because its the range that counts. there are lots of Shock Dynos on H-T(its pinned in the Suspension forum) and most of the JDM ones the clicks barely make a difference. one of the best JDM coilovers are the Zeals(i want to say Buddy Club also but never seen the dynos), which has only 6 clicks. the Omni's actually have a very good digressive line; but as stated before you cant really change the spring rate.

also, the people that get their Konis revalved is so that they can run higher spring rates. The koni yellows are good to around 500lb/in. theyve released the 8041 Race shocks now; which are pretty much Koni yellows that have already been revalved and shortened about a inch. they can support up to around 1000lb/in i believe....they run for about $1000.
 
:) I said megan racing was one of the best for UNDER a g. Far from one of the best period. Zeals and buddy clubs are way better, but around 1500 instead of 1000.

Shit, if you are going to spend that kind of money, go with the srr SIs.... :drool: I can only find them on some english website and they want like 1200 pounds. I don't even know what that converts to in american dollars, but I'm pretty sure it's more money than i've got.... :p

Coilovers I wish I could afford....
 
fuck teins
i have yet to be impressed with a single honda running teins :thumbsdown:
 
I'm quite happy with my 12k/10k omnipowers...glad I didnt spend the money on the teins.
 
Originally posted by pissedoffsol@Jul 11 2005, 11:40 AM
megan sucks. id rather have tiens. lol
[post=524078]Quoted post[/post]​


You are fucking hilarious, you know that? <_<

Tein = no pillow mount - shitty ride - limited dampening

Megan = pillow mount - much beter ride - farther adjustability range...

Do you have anything to back up your "megan sucks" comment, or are they just "gay" like everything else you haven't personally experienced? :)
 
I am suspisious of any company that has not been around a long time that has so diverse a product range. I like companies that make one thing, and excel at making that one thing or a few similar things and make them well.
 
Originally posted by sohcslammer+Jul 11 2005, 11:31 PM-->
pissedoffsol
@Jul 11 2005, 11:40 AM
megan sucks. id rather have tiens. lol
[post=524078]Quoted post[/post]​


You are fucking hilarious, you know that? <_<

Tein = no pillow mount - shitty ride - limited dampening

Megan = pillow mount - much beter ride - farther adjustability range...
[post=524496]Quoted post[/post]​


wrong; pillow ball mount=more vibration, # of clicks DOESNT DETERMINE RANGE!(refer to "Shock Dyno" thread from H-T), comfortable rides=softer springs with matched damping.
 
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