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Want A High Revving Monster?

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by maverick97, Jun 23, 2003.

  1. maverick97

    maverick97 Junior Member

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    I have been searching and waitin gfor several months trying to plan on getting a motor for my ek hatch. I have gone from wanting b16a to b16b then b18c1 to ls vtec and finally b20 vtec. I am so confused about know that I could scream. All I want is to pull 12's or low 13's and smoke everyone. Money is not and option so holla back and let me know what you guys think. What is the best build up for what I am looking for. I mean I have studied up and found out that the best vtec comes from the si motor. That is why I was leaning toward ls/vtec or b20/vtec. Should I just go with b18c and boost it or stick with the ls or b20 setup. I am all ears. :unsure:
     
  2. dcsports413

    dcsports413 Senior Member

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    Dude, if money is not an option then its your world. You can choose to build any of the motors b16a, gsr, ls, even H22 orType R and be in the 12's easy. A bulit ls is a good base for turbo. Come to think about it, again any of those motors could be built for turbo and be good. That is if money is not an issue. (I'm taking what you said "money is not an option" to actually mean "money is not an issue")
     
  3. maverick97

    maverick97 Junior Member

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    Money is not a issue. I just want good torque off the line and good top end to. Most cars around here arn't to quick. I want the quickest!
     
  4. dcsports413

    dcsports413 Senior Member

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    I think we all want good torque and a good top end. Somtimes you have to just take one. A turbo will be better for top end power and supercharger will be good for the low end (has good amount of torque). Keep in mind these are 4bangers and your not going to get mad torque like a V-8. How quick are the cars around there, what kind? You could be in the high 12's low 13's with a gsr swap, bolt ons, tuning, good driving, little weight reduction, etc... Is that fast enough? :D
     
  5. JDMilan

    JDMilan Senior Member

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    Going turbo is for poor people, which appearently you aren't so here is my NA recommendations...... :D


    First some basics:

    Either the Ls block or the CRV block can be found at a junkyard. Call around and look. They arent that hard to find. Especially the ls blocks. Dime a dozen. Look to pay about 250-300 for the ls block.or about 800-1000 for the CRV block. If you are going to resleeve the ls block then obviously it doesnt pay to buy the crv block. Save some money and buy me something.

    The benefit of the CRV block over the LS block is the size. The cranks are IDENTICAL but the b20 (crv) has an 84 mm bore as opposed to a 81 mm bore that the ls block has. One issue i see people say alot is "Does it matter the mileage of my motor". Not really no. You are going to rip it apart, replace everything and put it back together anyway. The only thing that will really matter in this issue is the condition of the cylinder walls. Even if in bad shape however they can be bored then honed and then are ready to go. CRV block are kinda tricky though. JE only makes 84mm and 85mm pistons. This means unless the block is practically brand new (like under 15k on it) you will have to bore it 40 thousandths (spelling?) over if you intend on using these products. Ls blocks are basically always ok, unless ya spun a bearing in which case dont even bother with the thing. A bore and a Hone will fix most problems.

    The advantage of the LS block is that there is a vast array of Honda pistons you can use. CTR, JDM ITR and USDM ITR all make good canidates. These are cheap (330 or so with rings, most of the time they are cheaper) and since honda is so damn cool.....they make oversized. So get this one: buy a used ls block at the junkyard. Bore it over and then use CTR pistons along with the stock ls everything else and ya done! Thanks honda!

    But.....CRV blocks are a lil different and here is why they more money. Honda never intended on making the b20 a high performance motor. So why make pistons that are the same bore? They dont really. Just stock B20 pistons. which yield a stupid low CR. And also the valve reliefs on the stock CRV pistons are not big enough to accept the valves of VTEC heads. So if using larger cams you cant really play with the cam gears too much. or else problems will occur. So what do you do? Buy aftermarket right?!? Ok so ya just spent between 450-500 on pistons...you cant use those things on stock rods! So ya buy aftermarket again! another 350 or so. So right away thats 800-900 dollars more then the
    Ls block...But you WILL HAVE MORE POWER!

    Now as for parts you will need with either motor. These are NEEDS not WANTS. They are a part of either build and will not be listed in the motors simply because we will assume you will get them.
    1. New rod and main bearings. Please dont ask what kind ya need. they are different for every motor.
    2. New head gasket, Oil pan gasket, rear main seal, Oil return gasket, oil filter
    3. Thrust washers
    4. fittings for running the external oil line.
    5. You must have the entire rotating assembly balanced!!!!!!!
    6. New VTEC Water pump.
    7. New VTEC oil pump.
    8. New VTEC Timing belt.
    9. BE SURE TO MATCH THE WATER PUMP AND TIMING BELT. VTEC=VTEC and Non-vtec=Non-vtec. otherwise your car will
    die a very painfull death.!
    10. We both prefer ARP bolts to stock. Stock is usable but ARP is cheap insurance.

    We also assume that you have bolt-ons already. Intake, Header with a 2.5 inch collector and a good exaust.
    If you dont have these.....get them.....NOW!


    Like said above. We will assume that all the motors being built will use this stuff...hence: we will not list these parts in the total build up parts list.


    BLOCK SET-UP

    LSVTEC block MILD: (250)
    CTR/TYPE-R pistons (330)
    LS rods


    LSVTEC block MEDIUM: (250)
    JE 11.5 pistons (Ross also make pistons for this application) (485)
    EAGLE rods (350)


    LSVTEC bock WILD: (250)
    Resleeve with Golden Eagle Sleeves 85 MM bore (1000)
    JE 12.5/13.0 pistons (Ross also will do) (485)
    CROWER connecting rods (500)


    B20VTEC block MILD: (900)
    Stock B20 pistons
    Stock rods


    B20VTEC block MEDUIM: (900)
    JE 11.5 or 12.5 pistons (485)
    EAGLE rods (350)


    B20VTEC block WILD: (900)
    GOLDEN EAGLE 86MM SLEEVES (1000)
    Custom 12.5/13.0 Pistons (500)
    95 mm Crank (800???)
    Deck Plate (machine shop cost)


    HEAD PACKAGES WITH LSVTECS/B20VTECS

    MILD:
    Type-R head with skunk2 stage 1 cams, skunk2 cam gears.
    ($800-$1200 full head, $600 for cams, 200 for gears)

    SI head with skunk2 stage 1 cams OR JUN type 2, Type-R Valve Train, Skunk2 cam gears OR JUN cam gears, Type-r Inner and Outer springs w/ retainers .
    ($400-$600 for head, $600 skunk2 cams / $800 for JUN type 2, $200 for Skunk2 cam gears / JUN cam gears?, Type-R valve train $350)

    GSR head: Similar as SI head

    MEDIUM:
    Type-R head with skunk2 stage 2 OR JUN type 3, Skunk2 valve train OR Port flow INNER-OUTER valve springs TI Titanium Retainers OR JUN valve train, Skunk2 valves, Skunk2 cam gears OR JUN cam gears .
    ($800-$1200 full head, $650 for Skunk2 cams / $850 for JUN 3 cams, $440 skunk2 valve train / $380 JUN valve train, $200 Skunk2 cam gears / JUN cam gears?

    SI Head: ($400-$600 for the head) Similar to Type-R setup

    GSR Head: ($400-$600 for the head) Similar to Type-R setup


    WILD:
    GSR head with TODA SPEC C cams, TODA cam gears, TODA springs, titanium retainers, TODA Individual throttle body / or TWM I.T.B.
    ($400-$600 for the head, $1900 for TODA Head package includes SPEC C cams-cam gears-valve train, $2500 for TODA Individual Throttle Body, $2000 for TWM Individual Throttle Body

    SI head: Similar to GSR setup

    TYPE-R head: Similar to GSR setup (add an extra 300-500 bucks for the head if purchased seperatly)


    Tranny Info for Frankenstein motors

    For the most part any GSR or Type R tranny is good for these motor's. The B16 tranny is not as strong as these. The differential is actually physically smaller then on these trannies. This could be due to the smaller motor, cost cutting....whatever the case may be. I dont trust it.
    I broke mine on street tires and have seen many others do the same. Yes it will work. Yes it will bolt up...But i wouldnt use it.....Unless you have too. That tranny with a Quaife lsd would be good. The gearing in that and the ITR are the same so it would be ok. for performance.
    But still why bother.......just get a 1.8 tranny!


    DECENT setup for the street: (500-600)
    Any GSR or Type R tranny

    NICE setup for street: (1700)
    GSR tranny
    Quaife LSD
    JDM Final Drive
    or...
    JDM ITR Tranny with 4.785 FD

    SWEET setup for the street: (2600)
    Type R tranny
    Quaife LSD
    JDM Final drive

    HOLY GOD setup for the street: (3200)
    Type R tranny
    Quaife LSD
    ATS 4.929 Final Drive
    Gsr 5th gear

    For an all out track car i would would like this setup most: (4000 +)
    Type R tranny
    Quaife 5.1 Final Drive
    Spool differential
    Custom Kaaz Gearing


    ECU Setups for Frank motors

    Many people think you need Hondata or a standalone system to go fast. YOU DONT. Plenty of people have gone VERY VERY fast with a regular chipped ecu. Here is an idea of some programs you can get to help you tune your new beast. We will assume the car is 92-00 so we will base all the
    ECU's on a P-28 basis.


    GREAT setup for the street: (550)
    P28 rechipped with a JDM B16 proggy with a higher rev limit.
    VAFC
    Many people dount this setup because it is a "stock" program. DONT. This is a great setup, and when
    paired with the VAFC provides very good tunability and since it is a stock program it is much less prone to detonation for timing reasons. There are a few people going very fast with this setup.....some are even on this message forum. Our pro car at www.b20vtec.com is another.

    ANOTHER setup for the street: (500)
    P28 with hondata
    Whether you consider it standalone or not, when its tuned it works well. For a street driven honda who demands a good idle and good power this is the ticket. Just dont foprget to include 500 or so for tuning and the install of the chip.

    BEST SETUP FOR ANYTHING: (2050 with everything)
    accell dfi 7.0 or speedpro are both great products (tuner depending) but for a street NA honda they really arent needed unless you have ITB's (then you prolly arent reading this anyways).


    Fuel setups for Frank Motors

    Fuel systems are actually pretty easy with these motors. They arent that hard to figure out.

    BASIC setup for Ls/Vtec: (550)
    RC 270 cc injectors
    Holley 190 fuel pump
    adjustable FPR with gauge

    BIG setup for Ls/Vtec: (550-600)
    RC 310 cc injectors
    Holley 255 pump
    adjustable FPR with gauge

    BASIC setup for CRVTEC: (550-600)
    RC 310 cc injectors
    Holley 255 pump
    adjustable FPR with gauge

    BIG setup for CRVTEC: (600)
    RC 370 cc injectors
    Holley 255 pump
    adjustable FPR





    Milan
     
  6. get_nick

    get_nick These snozzberries taste like snozzberries... VIP

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    i've read the ls/cr/vtec thread 3 or 4 times now but i still have a question. what stage head package is best and still be street legal. and second, does anybody sell whole crvtec swaps? lastly, what about a mount kit for a 92-95 hatch for the crvtec? would an itr swap be cheaper/better? it does come with lsd and cost around $4,000. i want to stay all motor.
     
  7. JDMilan

    JDMilan Senior Member

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    I don't think there is a law against having a nastier head package for street use. I recommend Alaniz, Portflow, and jg for head packages. Jeff at Importbuilders sells entire motor packages adn they do cost a good amount. GSR mounts will do. ITR swap will be cheaper but your comparing a 1.8 to a almost 2.0, the R lsd can be bought for like 400 bucks and you can get a quife for like 800 and the quife unit is much better.



    Milan
     
  8. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    BAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAAH

    you got it all wrong man.

    N/A is the expensive way to still go slow :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    ohh, and nice copy/paste from the FAQ... anyway


    street legal is different in just about every state. in Cali, head swaps of any kind are illegal- so scratch an ls/vtec and b20/vtec
     
  9. jeffie7

    jeffie7 Wrong Whole! VIP

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    dude you worry to much if its true about having all the funding then drop your car off at a nice shop or send it away the shop I deal with gets cars from a few states away

    tell them you have tons of money and want to put down 400WHP everyday in the car and bam youre done

    how many people on this site can run 12s with an all motor car WITH OUT stripping it down? I mean front seats, back seats, carpet, spare tire, jack, and amps/subs

    All motor is great for auto xing but come on if your looking for an easy 12 that means having a pretty wild allmotor setup unless you do an H22

    or you can take a B18C1 and boost it to 12s then in time when it blows you can build the motor up with all the extra cash you saved and have a sick car

    or just buy a body kit, real wing/s, 18s and tons of stickers and use some paint and write 12.2 on the window
     
  10. JDMilan

    JDMilan Senior Member

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    oh you like that B huh........LOL


    I figured if you want the most power per dollar then boost is the way to go for sure, hence it's for poor people :D


    All Motor = less power and more $$$



    Thanks for the copy paste, I figure it is better than "search"/"faq" sometimes.



    Milan
     
  11. TRuggiero_

    TRuggiero_ Senior Member

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    Go to importbuilders.com buy the 2.0 VTEC Turbo motor. (350) hp. Have them break it in and tune it then ship it to your local shop, have them install it. Call it a day.

    Or....

    Stop wasting money. Buy a 95-96 Toyota Supra Twin Turbo. Buy a Stage 8 package from thesuprastore.com with a single T78. Enjoy your 800+ hp in a sweet ass car.


    By the way: What the hell is with all the red X avatars?
     
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