B18C1civic96
Member
get the gsr if gona go all motor; get the b20 and turbocharge it
what is better a b20vtech or a gsr
- Thread starter shaun
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Suspension upgrades are cheaper than building an engine, and suspension owns road courses. It cost a lot more to get a civic to pull competitive times in the quarter. [/QUOTE]
like a motherfucker!!!!!!!!!!! [/quote]
It's a little off this topic but here is a theoretical situation:
2 civics, both 5G DX's........
1 civic goes for suspention,
the other goes for power.
Both woth a budget of say.....$4500.
The first civic spends $3500 on suspention(including labour). (Nice Competition coilover setup, bushings, sway bars, tie bars...all the usual suspects), Then spends $1000 on some bolt on performance for his stock D15A (Cat back exhaust, cold air intake, mabey some pulleys or cam gears ect......or whatever). Lets say that he even goes one step further and does some weight reduction, gutting the interior of all but the drivers seat.
The second civic (lets just take my car for instance [not that Im saying that its anything special]) spends $3500 on power (including labour). (H22 swap, cold air intake, cat back exhaust, piggyback ECU), then spends $1000 on some basic suspention upgrades (basic matched spring/strut set) and mabey spends the leftover few hundred on some good brake pads and some cheap slotted rotors. This civic also gets gutted of all but the drivers seat.
Lets also say that both cars have some upgraded 15" rims and some sticky rubber.
The two civics (with the same driver) then go to compete at the track and the drag strip. On the track (lets say a figure 8 style with equal straights and turns) The suspention civic pulls off a 16 second quarter, then goes hard and perfectly through the curves, but then again loafs down the straights. The power civic on the other hand, pulls off a mid 12 second quarter, has to slow down more than the other car for the curves, but then blasts down the straights like a jet fighter. After a few laps, the suspention civic returns to the pits tired and beaten.
Power Civic-1
Suspention Civic-0
We then go to the drag strip. Both cars have perfectly reliable, stock engines so that doesnt factor in here. I really dont need to continue this.
Power civic-2
Suspention civic-0
Even though this is all theoretical, there is alot of truth behind this story. My good racing buddy and long-time friend and I had this exact sort of competition. Needless to say, he ended up downgrading his suspention to make room for a new H22 under his hood. Read some articles and check up on the H22 swap, for the money, its a great choice. Case and point: To make a civic pull great road course times, it needs the balance between power and handling.....it simply cant keep up with near stock power on the straights, and anyone who goes carting on the weekends knows full well that the straight is just as important as the turn. On the other hand, it doesnt take much to turn a civic into a Ferrari/Viper eater on the 1/4, and still not sacrificing everyday driveability. Thats why most people like hondas....it's not the handling, or the vast array of rediculous body kits and shopping cart handle metal spoilers.....it's the v-tech under the hood.
For the gentleman who asked advice on a B20 or a GSR swap, Check out a H22 swap as well man, do some research.
Take care.
(once again, not trying to offend or start arguements)
like a motherfucker!!!!!!!!!!! [/quote]It's a little off this topic but here is a theoretical situation:
2 civics, both 5G DX's........
1 civic goes for suspention,
the other goes for power.
Both woth a budget of say.....$4500.
The first civic spends $3500 on suspention(including labour). (Nice Competition coilover setup, bushings, sway bars, tie bars...all the usual suspects), Then spends $1000 on some bolt on performance for his stock D15A (Cat back exhaust, cold air intake, mabey some pulleys or cam gears ect......or whatever). Lets say that he even goes one step further and does some weight reduction, gutting the interior of all but the drivers seat.
The second civic (lets just take my car for instance [not that Im saying that its anything special]) spends $3500 on power (including labour). (H22 swap, cold air intake, cat back exhaust, piggyback ECU), then spends $1000 on some basic suspention upgrades (basic matched spring/strut set) and mabey spends the leftover few hundred on some good brake pads and some cheap slotted rotors. This civic also gets gutted of all but the drivers seat.
Lets also say that both cars have some upgraded 15" rims and some sticky rubber.
The two civics (with the same driver) then go to compete at the track and the drag strip. On the track (lets say a figure 8 style with equal straights and turns) The suspention civic pulls off a 16 second quarter, then goes hard and perfectly through the curves, but then again loafs down the straights. The power civic on the other hand, pulls off a mid 12 second quarter, has to slow down more than the other car for the curves, but then blasts down the straights like a jet fighter. After a few laps, the suspention civic returns to the pits tired and beaten.
Power Civic-1
Suspention Civic-0
We then go to the drag strip. Both cars have perfectly reliable, stock engines so that doesnt factor in here. I really dont need to continue this.
Power civic-2
Suspention civic-0
Even though this is all theoretical, there is alot of truth behind this story. My good racing buddy and long-time friend and I had this exact sort of competition. Needless to say, he ended up downgrading his suspention to make room for a new H22 under his hood. Read some articles and check up on the H22 swap, for the money, its a great choice. Case and point: To make a civic pull great road course times, it needs the balance between power and handling.....it simply cant keep up with near stock power on the straights, and anyone who goes carting on the weekends knows full well that the straight is just as important as the turn. On the other hand, it doesnt take much to turn a civic into a Ferrari/Viper eater on the 1/4, and still not sacrificing everyday driveability. Thats why most people like hondas....it's not the handling, or the vast array of rediculous body kits and shopping cart handle metal spoilers.....it's the v-tech under the hood.
For the gentleman who asked advice on a B20 or a GSR swap, Check out a H22 swap as well man, do some research.
Take care.
(once again, not trying to offend or start arguements)
YouKnowWhoIBee
my avatar is better.
Too Shay...
H22's are, not knocking them mind you, more than $3,500 including labor and bolt ons. Just say you find one on-line for 2000, then you add shipping 2300, then you add mounts 3000 (and it's not even in the car yet), Of course that 2000 was just motor, tranny, ECU, so now we find the shiftcables and axles 3200, now on to labor, 3700, add the bolt ons 4700, time for that suspension combo you're talking about 5200 (500 cheap ones, without the adjustability you'd want with a H swap), and lets upgrade the brakes, since we're going to be blasting those straightaways we need to stop right? 5500, and finally lets tack on a window for broken parts/sensors, replacing clutch, hoses and all the what nots that always happen when you swap a motor 6000, damn I forgot the piggyback, and dyno time to tune it 6400.
Damn that was one long sentence, of course the total can be brought down by doing the labor yourself, shopping around for used or cheaper parts, just pointing out that just because an engine makes more power, doesn't mean that it is always the best route by which to accomplish your goals...
Very true my friend.
In terms of costs for the swap, Im guessing you guys are somewhere in the US right? Im out of Toronto, Canada. Here's the price breakdown I was refering to when I wrote my comparison:
I picked up an H22A w/30k miles
it included the tranny, axels, ECU, Full wiring harness, All required Cables , Distributor, Complete Intake Manifold, Alternator, A/C Power Steering Pump,All Brackets and Sensors (pretty much a front clip), everything I needed.
My mechanic picked it up for me for $1200 (Canadian dollars). It was mint.
Picked up HPC mounts for $350
I removed my old engine myself and installed the mounts and dropped in the new motor (if you can rent a cherry picker do it!! Lift up the front end and drop the engine out the bottom, put the new one in the same way). I then brought it to my mechanic. He and his crew spent almost 8 hours @ $70/hour to set up the Wiring, tranny and everything else. We ditched the A/C. Cost=$550. New fluids=$100 and change.....cant remember.
The spoon cpu was bought from a friends prelude. I payed $100. Since it was pre-programmed, and worked surprizingly well, no dyno time was required (even though if I did go on the dyno for a tuning session, I could make it work even better).
That leaves me with my AEM cold air intake @ $200, and my Tanabe cat-back at $800 (mechanic did that one.....2 hours [also did a ball-joint] @$70/hour)
I ripped out my back seats, and carpet to save on weight. All door panels remain for my tunes.
Total cost=$3340 (Canadian funds) (lucky for me everything went smoothly)
So ya, you can save a bunch of cash by doing some of the work yourself. Anyone who is mechanically inclined can do the motor swap, but if your like me, that wiring harness is scary....let someone who knows what they're doing deal with it.
She started up first try!
So wrapping this up, No, more power is not always the way to accomplish your goals, I agree, but referring back to Shaun's original question (B20 vs. GSR) providing he wanted the best results for the least amount of cash, the H22 would provide better results (B-series engines are great if you wanna go fast later, H22's are better if you wanna go fast now).
Oh ya, almost forgot.....it terms of the suspention....My car already had Toiko shocks, so I picked up some Progress H22 Hybrid springs for $215.
Also, I have some internal engine work as well (port/polish, pistons/cams) but that wasnt included in the comparison).
Good discussions!!!!!
Peace!
Ya, I thought so as well. I dont know if shipping charges from Japan are diffrent from the states then to canada, but you can pretty much pick up any honda B or H series engine (exception of B18C5/JDM B18C [type r's]) here from $900 (higher miles) to $1400 (the most expensive I've seen). All come with everything you need. Pretty killer price if you do some of the work yourself!
Well I have read the honda tunimg mag. and it said they are making an teg go 13s in the quarter with a b20z with a 10,000 budget. They are getting a 187 ponies now , but the goal is 200 ponies with no turbo charge so tell me why a gsr would be better or an h22? Cause I was told by a friend who owns a shop here in florida that you can get a b20 vtech and put forged rods, pistons, 8 lb. flywheel, and new clutch an get 198 ponies and be very close to 13.9 with track time. So this is why I wanted to know what you guys thought about b20 vtech , I like a gsr but I heard they are over rated for the money, you will spend more them to get them fast. I also heard LS/VTECH was the shit too, but I didn't really want to go that rout. I just want to beat the new evo 8 and sti. So I will turbo what ever motor in the summer, I just want to know what motor is a good starting point, not to hate on the H22 thing I like that ideal and was going to do that until I had to give up on A/C and or power steering. I just want to have okay get down so people can stop trying me cause I have a nice civic which is "A" show material. I know you have to decide show or go but I want some get down and will pay whatever to get it. So what I 'm asking is what motor is best till I get turbo in the summer? I heard b16 turboed (STOCK WITH NO INTERNAL WORK ) GETS YOU ABOUT 230, GSR 240, LS/VTECH 280 - 300, AND B20 250 - 260. NOW THIS IS WHAT I HEARD SO DON'T GET MAD AT ME AND WANT TO START TALKING SHIT, THIS IS WHAT I HEARD SO IF I'm WRONG TELL ME. And also because I have a body kit on my car will that slow my times down or will it not affect my times at all? Also since I will be doing internals before I put the motor in will the 8lb. flywheel, new clutch, forged pistons, rods, and fuel rail will they help be fast than a stock motor? What I mean is will these changes get me faster than the 17 second civic I have now or will I have to wait for turbo to feel a change in power? The only fast car to me I have been in is a del sol wih a b16a2 with a header he beat me bad and his car felt pretty fast , will I beat him with the mods and no turbo on what ever motor I choose ?
B18C1civic96
Member
why would u do the opposite taking into fact that the b20 block is already stronger than the gsr ,
littlehatch
Member
you can have a/c in a eg civic with an h22. i've seen it myself. i'm not sure about the power steering but i think you can use it also but even if you can't it's not bad without it.
I honestly can't agree with this hypothetical situation at all. Its kinda like you just picked which would win, with out any realistic data. Not to be mean/harsh or anything.
It is way to dependant on the track/driver/which modifications. Keep in mind the ability to go through a corner faster, leads to faster exit speeds which can balance out the speed difference.
There have been tons of times where I have caught up and passed cars that were much faster than mine, simply because of how fast I could go through the turns. Sure, they could pull away on the straights, but I caught right back up in the braking zones/corners.