me and chet talked about this while we were going back and forth as well with some minor edits for space... hes passing out- but here's our convo that we had- it has a lot of good stuff in it as well.
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pissedoffsolwork (12:36:43 AM): refresh that thread we are going at it in
pissedoffsolwork (12:37:49 AM):
these are the type of threads i would like to have on the board all the time
chethewitt (12:39:25 AM): reply
pissedoffsolwork (12:45:55 AM): oh this is gonna be good
chethewitt (12:46:21 AM): you've already been owned
chethewitt (12:46:26 AM): i'd quit while your'e ahead
pissedoffsolwork (12:47:46 AM): no way man
pissedoffsolwork (12:47:48 AM): i just owned you
pissedoffsolwork (12:47:50 AM): refresh
pissedoffsolwork (12:47:53 AM): with REAL specs
pissedoffsolwork (12:47:54 AM): hehe
chethewitt (12:49:57 AM): i know toda doesn't make turbo cams
pissedoffsolwork (12:50:02 AM): i know
pissedoffsolwork (12:51:00 AM): who ever wins, really- no one will- i just like these topics- because it's based on fact- not opinion- yet it shows both sides of the wheel.
pissedoffsolwork (12:51:10 AM): i dunno- like i said, i wish all our topics were like this
chethewitt (12:57:00 AM): i'm tired
chethewitt (12:57:06 AM): i'll respond in the morning
pissedoffsolwork (12:57:50 AM): haha
pissedoffsolwork (12:57:54 AM): you gotta think about it
pissedoffsolwork (12:58:05 AM): someone is getting owned
chethewitt (12:58:08 AM): i'm too tired to respond correctly
pissedoffsolwork (12:58:10 AM): lol
pissedoffsolwork (12:58:15 AM): im just busting your balls
chethewitt (12:58:17 AM): and i want to ask cory about this also
pissedoffsolwork (12:58:21 AM): but you see my points, right?
pissedoffsolwork (12:58:24 AM): i think they are more than valid
chethewitt (12:58:39 AM): yes, but with crower cams i want to see the power they make
chethewitt (12:58:40 AM): throughout
chethewitt (12:58:52 AM): with vtec, you can run two sets of lobes...
pissedoffsolwork (12:58:56 AM): i wish they listed dynos too... its hard to comapre without it
chethewitt (12:58:59 AM): that allows for more tuning
chethewitt (12:59:06 AM): cory will know immediately
pissedoffsolwork (12:59:08 AM): agreed-
chethewitt (12:59:21 AM): which is why i have a hard time beliving
pissedoffsolwork (12:59:21 AM): but, like you said, after 1st gear- you are 6-8k and thats about it
chethewitt (12:59:35 AM): the crower cams aren't going to be effective down low, so now you're basically left with a setup
chethewitt (12:59:44 AM): that is great up top, and has nothing down low
pissedoffsolwork (1:00:05 AM): but with no crazy power down low- you can get a launch and not spin
chethewitt (1:00:20 AM): you're spinning in circles
pissedoffsolwork (1:00:21 AM): and then as you catch 5k or so- you start to pull the same as a vtec would
chethewitt (1:00:23 AM): why not have an even power band
chethewitt (1:00:32 AM): with vtec, thats what you can do
chethewitt (1:00:35 AM): and set the vtec point
chethewitt (1:00:38 AM): to best suit the setup
chethewitt (1:00:41 AM): so its even power
pissedoffsolwork (1:00:47 AM): an ls power band is very similar to a v8's as far as it's curve goes...
pissedoffsolwork (1:00:53 AM): kinda sorta
pissedoffsolwork (1:00:56 AM): its flatter
chethewitt (1:01:00 AM): but there is a compromise
chethewitt (1:01:08 AM): while you might* make better low/mid
chethewitt (1:01:12 AM): the top end will suffer
chethewitt (1:01:15 AM): and i don't see how this will change
chethewitt (1:01:19 AM): without vtec
pissedoffsolwork (1:01:23 AM): not if its the same cut as the cam on the vtec
chethewitt (1:01:33 AM): but thats like
pissedoffsolwork (1:01:37 AM): it will suffer a little down low, and then make similar power where it is
chethewitt (1:01:39 AM): engaging vtec at 2k
chethewitt (1:01:45 AM): i've done this
chethewitt (1:01:47 AM): just to fuck around
chethewitt (1:01:52 AM): and my car was dying
chethewitt (1:01:54 AM): almost stalling
pissedoffsolwork (1:01:58 AM): yeah
pissedoffsolwork (1:02:06 AM): because the air/fuel is right for it either
chethewitt (1:02:17 AM): partly yes
pissedoffsolwork (1:02:17 AM): changing the lobe requires tuning -
chethewitt (1:02:21 AM): but
chethewitt (1:02:30 AM): everyone would engage vtec at 2k
chethewitt (1:02:34 AM): if it were making more power
pissedoffsolwork (1:02:39 AM): i agree- it doesn't
pissedoffsolwork (1:02:51 AM): in fact, most bump it up as they get more built
pissedoffsolwork (1:02:54 AM): and can rev higher
chethewitt (1:02:58 AM): yes
chethewitt (1:03:00 AM): exactly
pissedoffsolwork (1:03:30 AM): but again, thats 1st gear.
chethewitt (1:03:44 AM): but you still need to be able to drive the car
chethewitt (1:03:47 AM): at normal rpm's
pissedoffsolwork (1:03:52 AM): and with a turbo- and the lag it creates- the cam profile really doesn't play as much into it as it does when you are NA
chethewitt (1:04:03 AM): won't you have more lag
chethewitt (1:04:07 AM): because the car is making less power?
chethewitt (1:04:18 AM): because the timing is basically fucked
chethewitt (1:04:22 AM): if you use the same cut
chethewitt (1:04:24 AM): as vtec
chethewitt (1:04:27 AM): down low?
pissedoffsolwork (1:04:36 AM): not necessarliy... lag is based on exhaust flow being low.. and hence, spinning the exhaust wheel slower
chethewitt (1:05:20 AM): the more power the motor makes
chethewitt (1:05:24 AM): the more exhaust it creates
chethewitt (1:05:30 AM): and the faster the turbo will spool
chethewitt (1:05:52 AM): hence small displacement motors being unable to spin big turbos
chethewitt (1:05:57 AM): which equates to a lot of lag
pissedoffsolwork (1:06:02 AM): see- thats another factor that we don't have any prrof on... just how MUCH exhaust flows out at any given rpm for a vtec vs a non vtec motor
chethewitt (1:06:07 AM): why not put a t-88 on a b16a?
chethewitt (1:06:18 AM): like i said, i will ask cory
pissedoffsolwork (1:06:27 AM): here's the thing
pissedoffsolwork (1:07:01 AM): honda motors, crave low pressure, but a lot of air mass.
supras on the other hand crave both high pressure (30 psi and stuff) as well as the high air mass
chethewitt (1:07:19 AM): ah
chethewitt (1:07:20 AM): i'm tired
chethewitt (1:07:24 AM): i can't think about this
chethewitt (1:07:26 AM): anymore
chethewitt (1:07:41 AM): i will come up with an appropriate response tomorrow
pissedoffsolwork (1:07:45 AM): so a big turbo, boosting 10 psi, will create a lot of air mass.
a small turbo, will have to boost much higher psi to create similar air mass lelves- and it will be feeding it the high pressure that they don't want
pissedoffsolwork (1:08:10 AM): i think im going to copy/paste this convo into the post as well- we talked about a lot of good stuff in this
pissedoffsolwork (1:09:12 AM): ok dude- I'll let you get some sleep
pissedoffsolwork (1:09:22 AM): always a pleasure to argue about cars over the internet
pissedoffsolwork (1:09:23 AM): haha
chethewitt (1:09:55 AM): ok
chethewitt (1:09:58 AM): laterman
pissedoffsolwork (1:10:00 AM): late
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so, there you have it... more stuff to follow