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Wideband sensor with CromeFree

Discussion in 'ECU's, Electronics, and Tuning' started by K2e2vin, Feb 9, 2006.

  1. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    I've noticed with the free version of Crome it does not have the option to modify the lambda table. I researched a little on this and can only find one post where the guy says as long as you use a O2 that has its own software, itll work. He stated the PLX doesn't have their own software but the LM-1 does; can anyone confirm that it'll work with the free version of Crome?

    Also, can I use an independent datalogging software instead of using Crome's?

    I know some of you guys are saying just buy CromePro; but after looking at the features, I don't think its really worth it for me(that is, if I can use an independent datalogging software).
     
  2. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    you can use an independent datalogging program if you can find one that works for you. FreeLog and EcuControl are the two that I'm familiar with. CromePro is cool because of the maptrace feature, and you can edit the fuel and ignition tables in realtime as you see them being used. I was all for TurboEdit/EcuControl, because I am obd0, but it is still in development, and although I see a lot of progress, I'm just going to spend the 150 for cromepro, which works NOW, and convert to obd1. My .02 say get cromepro, it works, and bugs in freeware will eat away at your nerves, it's worth it to spend the extra cash for the whole tuning package cromepro provides, especially if you are tuning your own ride.

    As for crome being compatible with the LM-1. I don't know exactly. I didn't even think free crome had any datalogging whatsoever. I'll have to check into it...
     
  3. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    I don't think it does have datalogging(in CromeFree); I was referring to CromePro's datalogging.
     
  4. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    well, I guess I didn't understand your question...It's true that the LM-1 has it's own logging software. You can log the lambda, but I can't see how it would be of any use if you didn't log the MAP and rpm as well. I don't know what hardware you have, but if you are going with a datalogging port directly from the ecu, which is what most people do, you can just port the analog wideband output from the wideband's controller into the ecu, whichever wideband you choose to use, and then datalog with either a standalone datalogging program, or with cromepro or that type of system. The advantage of doing it with cromepro is that you can use the maptrace feature, and then you know exactly what cells in the tables taht the ecu is pulling values from, and tuning goes MUCH quicker. If you don't do it this way, and are using a separtate rom editor and datalogger,you are just guessing the general area of cells which the ecu is using from the logged output. Some people are really good, and have a lot of experience 'guessing' at which cells to modify, but from a newbie standpoint, it makes so much more sense to use a complete tuning suite, if that is what you want to call it. then, you have all your logged data corresponding directly to what you are changing in the rom. RTP makes things much faster and easier to understand the correlation between the logged data and the fuel/ign tables you are editing.

    I also don't know if free crome supports RTP, so that might be another reason to spend the relatively small amount of money for the software. RTP is awesome, you can feel your car start to give you grief when you start leaning her out too much or give to much advance. It's like playing with a kid's mind... :)
     
  5. GSRCRXsi

    GSRCRXsi Super Moderator Moderator VIP

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    just spend the money and get CromePro. its worth it.
     
  6. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    my plx m500 had datalogging on it, so does my lm-1. i'm not sure about the m300 though.

    IMO, you don't really need it.

    I've YET to tune a car with datalogging.
     
  7. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    Ya, but not EVERYONE wants to go drop $75+/hr. for a few hours of dyno time...
    Like I said, tuning can be done without it, but maptrace/autotune and datalogging make the process much faster.
     
  8. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    Update: You CAN change the lamda values in the lamda tables. I am not sure what good it will do you..as a reference, maybe? You just double click the cell you want to change. and then save the rom. I am not sure why you were asking that now that I think more about it...oh, one more thing to note - Crome is WAYYY more simple and organized than anything obd0 tuning has to offer right now. I was able to look at it and completely understand what was going on within a minute of downloading it. If the datalogging and autotune work as smoothly as the free version, I'm signing away my next available 150 to mr. cui, and definitely making the switch to obd1. Looks like very user-friendly software...
     
  9. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    You had datalogging and autotune on your free version of Crome? Also, what version did you download? The one I have, under settings, the lambda table doesnt even pop it(its the conversion chart for A/F to lambda for the a/f meter, not the target-a/f map). The reason why I want to stay free version is because B I think stated that autotune sucks for ITBs; which was the only reason I thought of to get Pro. But since you brought it up, maptrace would be a good feature to have.

    Also, yes the free version of Crome supports RTP(at least it has the option to pick it; but I never tried it).

    If the datalogging and maptrace is worth the $150, then I will get it(but I really want to try it first). I'm still trying to figure out how to tune the fuel compensation for the ram-air though...
     
  10. Ben Ogle

    Ben Ogle Junior Member

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    It must take you forever to tune.

    Ben
     
  11. pissedoffsol

    pissedoffsol RETIRED

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    ehh, naw... you justt to have good gauges and quick eyes.

    i like to set up my gear so i have my wideband, boost gauge and egt and tach all within the same eye view so i can watch all at once.

    when something looks out of place, i know exactly where i am to make the changes.
     
  12. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    No autotune or datalogging with the free version. What do you mean lamda to afr conversion? That's a constant, 14.7:1 afr = 1.00 lamda. If you are given an afr, divide it by 14.7 to get the lamda value, and vice versa if you have lamda and want afr.
    As for autotune, I don't really know too much about it, other than you give it a specified lamda value for each of the cells you are desiring to change, go do a datalogging session, and when you are finished, the program will compare the lamda values measured off the log, and compare them to the desired values in the table, and adjust the fuel accordingly. I am sure it probably sucks for itbs because of a timing issue (does autotune adjust the ignition tables?), but I have not familiarized myself with crome yet, or with the problem of tuning ITBs (although I wish I was :) ), so you're on your own there. You don't have to use the autotune with the datalogging, you can just make the adjustments yourself. It's nice to have all the information already there and organized for you in one program, which is what makes cromepro desirable. You can do it the free method, it'll just take a lot longer, or you hope to know someone that knows exactly what they are doing.

    To tune the ram air, just do a datalogging session, figure out where on the map that the mixture is leaning out, and adjust accordingly. Other than that, it's just an educated guess. Just go out and do it. :)

    OLD SCHOOL!!! j/p I wish I had a thermocouple to check egts in my ride. one of these days...
     
  13. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    I'm sorry I worded that wrong; its a voltage to lambda table. here's a pic of it from pgmfi forums: [​IMG]

    The problem with tuning the ram air is it changes as you go faster; different levels in different gears. I don't know how if Crome has anything that will work(maybe something to adjust the fuel levels based on car speep/mph?).

    Yea I understand that it's good to have all those features; but damn; $150...that's 100 McDonald's double cheeseburgers with 100 apple pies :p [​IMG]
     
  14. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    Oh, I get what you are saying. Cromefree doesn't have that because it doesn't have datalogging capabilities, the only reason you would need that. Basically, you can set up your wideband on different scales. Where my LM-1 might read 1.75 volts at stoic, another, say the plx m500, might read stoic at 2 volts. If you are not datalogging with crome, there's no need for that option in the settings menu. Your datalogger, the free one you'll get, should either have different options for which wideband you are using (i.e. ecucontrol allows for the plx, innovate, or raw voltage logging) or, just log the raw voltage and use the linear equation that is associated with the wideband's output to convert the raw voltage to afr in excel or whatever spreadsheet you are saving your log to.

    As far as the ram air, all the ecu will see are sensor outputs. It's going to see a MAP sensor output, and an RPM output primarily. If you have your foot to the floor at 3500rpm in third gear, the ecu is going to see a MAP sensor reading. If you are in 5th, once again at 3500rpm with your foot to the throttle, because of the ram air, and gearing, the MAP sensor reading will be different, so you'll be tuning a different part of the fuel and ignition map than for the 3rd gear pull, get it? You aren't going to be tuning the same spot. So just do a datalogging session like I said. Go through all the gears, examine where your afr's are at, and adjust the maps accordingly. You'll be fine. But good problems to think about. Keep the questions coming, it's forcing me to get better acquainted with crome.
     
  15. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    Only problem with that there were problems with getting consistent readings with ITBs and with the MAP; so they created ITB-Tools; which uses a MAP to TPS only reference(like in the low RPMs; it runs off of MAP, but at a set load, it switches to TPS); I think TEC or Autronics has any ECU that blends(MAP/TPS Blend) at a certain percent instead of doing TPS-only or MAP only. I'm not quite sure yet though; because I want to run an airbox over the ITBs; maybe that would stabilize the vacuum so I can just run the regular MAP?

    btw; Im pretty much stuck with running ITB-Tools because I'm running the GSXR1000 TPS which uses a different range.
     
  16. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    How is your map setup with the ITBs? Is it run off a vacuum manifold? I totally wasn't even thinking of that, I see your problem. Give a break down of your setup, it is a really interesting problem. How are you routing a ram air to ITB's without a manifold of some sort?
     
  17. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    I'm putting the GSXR1000 Airbox on the ITBs to act as a huge plenum.

    Yes, the MAP is on a vacuum manifold(GE manifold). Vacuum is pulled from the small vacuum/venturi ports on the ITB(total of 5 of them).

    The setup is 02 GSXR1000 ITBs, Injectors, and Airbox; one of the ram air inlets on the airbox is plugged; while the other side is routed to an airbox(havent decided whether to use the CRX one or a Integra one) which leads to a velocity stack in the bumper. Reason for using another airbox for filtering is because I'm removing the filter from the GSXR Airbox; itll be a PITA to change that filter because of the tight engine bay.
     
  18. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    That is weird that it would get inconsistent MAP readings then, I don't know. Is that common? I would think that if your ITB's are all open to the same atmosphere, and are all connected to the same ports, that your MAP would be fairly consistent. Do mean by inconsistent, that they fluctuated erratically for every pull, or that you just got different map readings from pull to pull? If I were you, I'd try to go about getting a larger airbox. One that is designed for a single intake, since the one side you plugged up might be giving you problems. For all intensive purposes, your car isn't a 'RAM' air so to speak, unless your pipes are extending to the front of the car. The piping would also have to be fairly straight for it to be effective. I can't see exactly what your setup looks like, but you might be starving a cylinder with that airbox setup. Maybe look into getting a sheet metal manifold built for you. One with a good bit of volume.
     
  19. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    I don't know if it'll fluctuate with the airbox; which I stated above, but from what I've read its very common for ITBs to fluctuate(but they're never specific). The GSXR airbox/plenum is around 10L in volume I believe; It's probably the biggest thatll fit in a CRX engine bay. I don't have a digi-cam so I'll just make an illustration later of how it looks.

    If plugging one side of the airbox will starve the cylinder; should I just connect the other side also? Also, I called it ram because the intake is in the front; a velocity stack in the bumper. The Integra/CRX airboxes are just for filtration during daily driving(although the pipes aren't that straight because the inlet in the GSXR airbox is on the bottom.

    engine bay:
    [​IMG]

    That's roughly how the setup looks. I didn't illustrate a side view, but the "plenum" extends about a foot downwards.
     
  20. MikeBergy

    MikeBergy Blah blah blah....

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    Well, hmm, I don't know. 10 liters is a fairly sizable volume. I can't see one side being plugged up as a major problem in this case, but I'd have to see it to be sure. Have you gone and seen what it does when you drive it, or do you not even have an adequate basemap to get it idling? Every custom setup is different, so you might not even have the same problem as others, but a set of different problems might come your way. I'd suggest getting a basemap that will allow it to be initially tested if you don't already have one. Then do some prelminary datalogging, and see where you are at, and any developing trends you might see with the MAP/TPS/RPM, and see if any weird fluctuations exist. That's my advice.
     
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