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jimboburgess · 04-24-2006, 09:47 PM

http://www.teamscr.com/rotors.html

this is the original text from the site above

Let’s look at some common rotor ‘modification’ and ‘performance’ upgrades that you may have been exposed to and try to separate the marketing from the engineering…

Super Sizing

Bigger rotors will make your friends think you are cool, bigger rotors look sexy, but bigger rotors do not stop the car. What a bigger rotor will do is lower the overall operating temperature of the brakes – which is a GREAT idea IF your temperatures are causing problems with other parts of the braking system. Take for example a F500 racecar – a small 800 pound single seat formula car. While the brakes are certainly much smaller than those found on a 3,000 pound GT1 Camaro, that does not necessarily mean that they need to be made larger. In fact, swapping on a GT1 brake package would probably do more harm than good – that’s a lot of steel hanging on the wheel that needs to accelerate each time the ‘go’ pedal is pushed. So, the motto of this story is bigger is better until your temperatures are under control. After that point, you are doing more harm than good…unless you really like the look (and hey – some of us do!).

Crossdrilling

Crossdrilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads from the 40’s and 50’s, not a whole lot. Rotors were first ‘drilled’ because early brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures – a process known as ‘gassing out’. These gasses then formed a thin layer between the brake pad face and the rotor, acting as a lubricant and effectively lowering the coefficient of friction. The holes were implemented to give the gasses ‘somewhere to go’. It was an effective solution, but today’s friction materials do not exhibit the same gassing out phenomenon as the early pads.

For this reason, the holes have carried over more as a design feature than a performance feature. Contrary to popular belief they don’t lower temperatures (in fact, by removing weight from the rotor, the temperatures can actually increase a little), they create stress risers allowing the rotor to crack sooner, and make a mess of brake pads – sort of like a cheese grater rubbing against them at every stop. (Want more evidence? Look at NASCAR or F1. You would think that if drilling holes in the rotor was the hot ticket, these teams would be doing it.)

The one glaring exception here is in the rare situation where the rotors are so oversized (look at any performance motorcycle or lighter formula car) that the rotors are drilled like Swiss cheese. While the issues of stress risers and brake pad wear are still present, drilling is used to reduce the mass of the parts in spite of these concerns. Remember – nothing comes for free. If these teams switched to non-drilled rotors, they would see lower operating temperatures and longer brake pad life – at the expense of higher weight. It’s all about trade-offs.

Slotting

Slotting rotors, on the other hand, might be a consideration if your sanctioning body allows for it. Cutting thin slots across the face of the rotor can actually help to clean the face of the brake pads over time, helping to reduce the ‘glazing’ often found during high-speed use which can lower the coefficient of friction. While there may still be a small concern over creating stress risers in the face of the rotor, if the slots are shallow and cut properly, the trade-off appears to be worth the risk. (Have you looked at a NASCAR rotor lately?)

Too cool!

Last year we bought 4 rotors. Two were bone stock, and two were subjected to a process know as Cryogenically Treating – one of the high-tech buzzwords floating around the paddock. The rotors were run back-to-back on the same track on the same car on the same day with temperatures taken to make sure that they saw the same level of heat. Following the track session, the parts were removed and we had them literally dissected by a materials lab.

The testing conducted included surface hardness, grain structure analysis, density, and surface scanning with an electron microscope. Guess what – after seeing the heat of use, the rotors looked identical in every regard. This is not to say that there is not a benefit from treating other parts which see lower temperatures and/or have different material properties, but treating our rotors on our car showed no tangible benefits (note that it didn’t seem to hurt anything either). Come to your own conclusions, but in our case, we’ll pass.

Summary

So, what’s the secret recipe? Again, there is no absolute right or wrong answer, but like most modifications, there are those which appear to be well-founded and those that ‘look cool.’ If ultimate thermal performance is your goal, look to what the top teams are running (relatively large, slotted rotors). However, if ‘image’ is your thing, break out the drillpress – and be prepared to replace your brake pads on a regular basis.

E_SolSi · 04-25-2006, 01:15 AM

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] been saying the same exact thing for a long time now

TurboMirage · 04-25-2006, 08:13 AM

agreed.

the only reason i have powerslots on my mirage, is that given the cost of the entire 2000 LS big brake kit, the rotors almost brand new cost me like 15 each.

Calesta · 04-25-2006, 11:24 PM

Good cut and paste.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(E_SolSi @ Apr 25 2006, 12:15 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] been saying the same exact thing for a long time now
[/b][/quote]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/werd.gif[/img]

So... 14 inch rotors up front and 13 out back for me, slotted. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]

MikeBergy · 04-26-2006, 08:24 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Calesta @ Apr 25 2006, 08:24 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Good cut and paste.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(E_SolSi @ Apr 25 2006, 12:15 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] been saying the same exact thing for a long time now
[/b][/quote]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/werd.gif[/img]

So... 14 inch rotors up front and 13 out back for me, slotted. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
on the s2k or civic...or hardbody [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

I'm going with 11 inch rotors from fastbrakes.com and 2-piston legend calipers when I do a brake job next.

I support the majority of what that site is saying, but bottom line is more pad area = more stopping power, and from a thermo standpoint, more rotor surface = more cooling area for heat transfer away from the rotors = less brake fade. But whether you need it for what you are doing or not is the big question that needs to be answered. That said, circuit racing was probably not what the OEM brakes were originally designed for, and that is why I'll be upsizing, although not too big, like Cal. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

Calesta · 04-26-2006, 09:47 PM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MikeBergy @ Apr 26 2006, 07:24 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
on the s2k or civic...or hardbody [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

I'm going with 11 inch rotors from fastbrakes.com and 2-piston legend calipers when I do a brake job next.

I support the majority of what that site is saying, but bottom line is more pad area = more stopping power, and from a thermo standpoint, more rotor surface = more cooling area for heat transfer away from the rotors = less brake fade. But whether you need it for what you are doing or not is the big question that needs to be answered. That said, circuit racing was probably not what the OEM brakes were originally designed for, and that is why I'll be upsizing, although not too big, like Cal. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]

Civic's dead, Hardbody is going to get 12s up front (cheap) and stock discs out back if any upgrade at all, and the S2k will get the monster brakes.

I like big brakes, by the way. Gotta make the airbags pop when you stop! I've been on some pretty high speed tracks, and when you're lapping at over 150mph and have to rein things in really fast- you want some big heat sinks. I'm shooting for close to 400whp on a road course power curve, so I want the 14s if I can make them work.

Want my Fastbrakes setup? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

totalburnout · 04-27-2006, 12:58 AM

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Calesta @ Apr 26 2006, 09:47 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MikeBergy @ Apr 26 2006, 07:24 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
on the s2k or civic...or hardbody [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

I'm going with 11 inch rotors from fastbrakes.com and 2-piston legend calipers when I do a brake job next.

I support the majority of what that site is saying, but bottom line is more pad area = more stopping power, and from a thermo standpoint, more rotor surface = more cooling area for heat transfer away from the rotors = less brake fade. But whether you need it for what you are doing or not is the big question that needs to be answered. That said, circuit racing was probably not what the OEM brakes were originally designed for, and that is why I'll be upsizing, although not too big, like Cal. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]

Civic's dead, Hardbody is going to get 12s up front (cheap) and stock discs out back if any upgrade at all, and the S2k will get the monster brakes.

I like big brakes, by the way. Gotta make the airbags pop when you stop! I've been on some pretty high speed tracks, and when you're lapping at over 150mph and have to rein things in really fast- you want some big heat sinks. I'm shooting for close to 400whp on a road course power curve, so I want the 14s if I can make them work.

Want my Fastbrakes setup? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]

You're shooting for 400whp in the s2k??? holy shit.

If that happens, wow.... I'll want to see it.

Calesta · 04-27-2006, 10:44 PM

Yeah, way OT- but shooting for 400whp. It's doable on the stock internals too. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_wink.gif[/img]

400whp may be a bit high, but even 400 crank hp will make me pretty happy. That's definitely achievable. Lovefab's system runs a FLAT torque curve from 3000-9000rpm, and that was on a small turbo on 91 octane- and peaking at around 370whp.

92dxhatch · 05-16-2006, 01:43 PM

so wanna sell you fast brakes?? how much??

sorry to change the subject.

Ryan

04-24-2006, 09:47 PM	#1
jimboburgess Go fast, Go Cheap Join Date: May 2005 Location: Selinsgrove, PA Age: 22 Posts: 1,280 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 1991 CRX Si Rep Power: 21	http://www.teamscr.com/rotors.html this is the original text from the site above Let’s look at some common rotor ‘modification’ and ‘performance’ upgrades that you may have been exposed to and try to separate the marketing from the engineering… Super Sizing Bigger rotors will make your friends think you are cool, bigger rotors look sexy, but bigger rotors do not stop the car. What a bigger rotor will do is lower the overall operating temperature of the brakes – which is a GREAT idea IF your temperatures are causing problems with other parts of the braking system. Take for example a F500 racecar – a small 800 pound single seat formula car. While the brakes are certainly much smaller than those found on a 3,000 pound GT1 Camaro, that does not necessarily mean that they need to be made larger. In fact, swapping on a GT1 brake package would probably do more harm than good – that’s a lot of steel hanging on the wheel that needs to accelerate each time the ‘go’ pedal is pushed. So, the motto of this story is bigger is better until your temperatures are under control. After that point, you are doing more harm than good…unless you really like the look (and hey – some of us do!). Crossdrilling Crossdrilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads from the 40’s and 50’s, not a whole lot. Rotors were first ‘drilled’ because early brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures – a process known as ‘gassing out’. These gasses then formed a thin layer between the brake pad face and the rotor, acting as a lubricant and effectively lowering the coefficient of friction. The holes were implemented to give the gasses ‘somewhere to go’. It was an effective solution, but today’s friction materials do not exhibit the same gassing out phenomenon as the early pads. For this reason, the holes have carried over more as a design feature than a performance feature. Contrary to popular belief they don’t lower temperatures (in fact, by removing weight from the rotor, the temperatures can actually increase a little), they create stress risers allowing the rotor to crack sooner, and make a mess of brake pads – sort of like a cheese grater rubbing against them at every stop. (Want more evidence? Look at NASCAR or F1. You would think that if drilling holes in the rotor was the hot ticket, these teams would be doing it.) The one glaring exception here is in the rare situation where the rotors are so oversized (look at any performance motorcycle or lighter formula car) that the rotors are drilled like Swiss cheese. While the issues of stress risers and brake pad wear are still present, drilling is used to reduce the mass of the parts in spite of these concerns. Remember – nothing comes for free. If these teams switched to non-drilled rotors, they would see lower operating temperatures and longer brake pad life – at the expense of higher weight. It’s all about trade-offs. Slotting Slotting rotors, on the other hand, might be a consideration if your sanctioning body allows for it. Cutting thin slots across the face of the rotor can actually help to clean the face of the brake pads over time, helping to reduce the ‘glazing’ often found during high-speed use which can lower the coefficient of friction. While there may still be a small concern over creating stress risers in the face of the rotor, if the slots are shallow and cut properly, the trade-off appears to be worth the risk. (Have you looked at a NASCAR rotor lately?) Too cool! Last year we bought 4 rotors. Two were bone stock, and two were subjected to a process know as Cryogenically Treating – one of the high-tech buzzwords floating around the paddock. The rotors were run back-to-back on the same track on the same car on the same day with temperatures taken to make sure that they saw the same level of heat. Following the track session, the parts were removed and we had them literally dissected by a materials lab. The testing conducted included surface hardness, grain structure analysis, density, and surface scanning with an electron microscope. Guess what – after seeing the heat of use, the rotors looked identical in every regard. This is not to say that there is not a benefit from treating other parts which see lower temperatures and/or have different material properties, but treating our rotors on our car showed no tangible benefits (note that it didn’t seem to hurt anything either). Come to your own conclusions, but in our case, we’ll pass. Summary So, what’s the secret recipe? Again, there is no absolute right or wrong answer, but like most modifications, there are those which appear to be well-founded and those that ‘look cool.’ If ultimate thermal performance is your goal, look to what the top teams are running (relatively large, slotted rotors). However, if ‘image’ is your thing, break out the drillpress – and be prepared to replace your brake pads on a regular basis. __________________ Resurrected Sol http://hondaswap.com/auto-multi-medi...ted-sol-60210/ 1991 B16 Crx Si www.myspace.com/burdenelectronica

04-25-2006, 08:13 AM	#3
TurboMirage Running on two cylinders Join Date: May 2003 Location: Southbridge, MA Age: 24 Posts: 16,181 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2000 Mitsubishi Lancer RPW E5 Coupe Rep Power: 219	agreed. the only reason i have powerslots on my mirage, is that given the cost of the entire 2000 LS big brake kit, the rotors almost brand new cost me like 15 each. __________________ Home of the RPW built 2000 Lancer CC Coupe. See what is done to the Little EVO5

04-25-2006, 11:24 PM	#4
Calesta Admin with a big stick Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Lufkin, TX Age: 31 Posts: 23,895 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2003 S2000 Rep Power: 265	Good cut and paste. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(E_SolSi @ Apr 25 2006, 12:15 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'> [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] been saying the same exact thing for a long time now [/b][/quote] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/werd.gif[/img] So... 14 inch rotors up front and 13 out back for me, slotted. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ DO NOT PM me with tech questions! Use the forums! Intercrew Auto Salon - (972) 485-8688

04-26-2006, 09:47 PM	#6
Calesta Admin with a big stick Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Lufkin, TX Age: 31 Posts: 23,895 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2003 S2000 Rep Power: 265	<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MikeBergy @ Apr 26 2006, 07:24 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'> on the s2k or civic...or hardbody [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] I'm going with 11 inch rotors from fastbrakes.com and 2-piston legend calipers when I do a brake job next. I support the majority of what that site is saying, but bottom line is more pad area = more stopping power, and from a thermo standpoint, more rotor surface = more cooling area for heat transfer away from the rotors = less brake fade. But whether you need it for what you are doing or not is the big question that needs to be answered. That said, circuit racing was probably not what the OEM brakes were originally designed for, and that is why I'll be upsizing, although not too big, like Cal. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] [/b][/quote] Civic's dead, Hardbody is going to get 12s up front (cheap) and stock discs out back if any upgrade at all, and the S2k will get the monster brakes. I like big brakes, by the way. Gotta make the airbags pop when you stop! I've been on some pretty high speed tracks, and when you're lapping at over 150mph and have to rein things in really fast- you want some big heat sinks. I'm shooting for close to 400whp on a road course power curve, so I want the 14s if I can make them work. Want my Fastbrakes setup? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] __________________ DO NOT PM me with tech questions! Use the forums! Intercrew Auto Salon - (972) 485-8688

04-27-2006, 12:58 AM	#7
totalburnout Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Northern NJ Age: 23 Posts: 5,987 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2006 Audi A4 Rep Power: 104	<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Calesta @ Apr 26 2006, 09:47 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MikeBergy @ Apr 26 2006, 07:24 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'> on the s2k or civic...or hardbody [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] I'm going with 11 inch rotors from fastbrakes.com and 2-piston legend calipers when I do a brake job next. I support the majority of what that site is saying, but bottom line is more pad area = more stopping power, and from a thermo standpoint, more rotor surface = more cooling area for heat transfer away from the rotors = less brake fade. But whether you need it for what you are doing or not is the big question that needs to be answered. That said, circuit racing was probably not what the OEM brakes were originally designed for, and that is why I'll be upsizing, although not too big, like Cal. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] [/b][/quote] Civic's dead, Hardbody is going to get 12s up front (cheap) and stock discs out back if any upgrade at all, and the S2k will get the monster brakes. I like big brakes, by the way. Gotta make the airbags pop when you stop! I've been on some pretty high speed tracks, and when you're lapping at over 150mph and have to rein things in really fast- you want some big heat sinks. I'm shooting for close to 400whp on a road course power curve, so I want the 14s if I can make them work. Want my Fastbrakes setup? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] [/b][/quote] You're shooting for 400whp in the s2k??? holy shit. If that happens, wow.... I'll want to see it. __________________ "Good talk... I'll see you out there."


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04-27-2006, 10:44 PM	#8
Calesta Admin with a big stick Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Lufkin, TX Age: 31 Posts: 23,895 iTrader: 0 / 0% Ride: 2003 S2000 Rep Power: 265	Yeah, way OT- but shooting for 400whp. It's doable on the stock internals too. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_wink.gif[/img] 400whp may be a bit high, but even 400 crank hp will make me pretty happy. That's definitely achievable. Lovefab's system runs a FLAT torque curve from 3000-9000rpm, and that was on a small turbo on 91 octane- and peaking at around 370whp. __________________ DO NOT PM me with tech questions! Use the forums! Intercrew Auto Salon - (972) 485-8688

05-16-2006, 01:43 PM	#9
92dxhatch Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: nor*cal Posts: 956 iTrader: 0 / 0% Rep Power: 17	so wanna sell you fast brakes?? how much?? sorry to change the subject. Ryan __________________ 92 CB7 EX: in the works 07 Fit Sport: Selling 92 EG: SOLD!10-14-2008 91 CB7 LX: Totaled by wife 91 CRX: R.I.P 64 VW beetle: sold

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