Big Plans, I smell an AWD Civic

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Ozwald

New Member
Before anyone gets on here to slam me at how hard this is im gona say too bad, Cars are bought and ready for tear-down. So please keep quiet and let me document my play time. Thank you.

Yes, I have been planning on doing a AWD conversion into my 98 Civic Lx using the CR-V engine and drive-lines.

Why? one may ask. Answer: Why not?

I am on my road to becoming an automotive engineer but am missing something in my schooling. An engineering challenge. That is what this swap is all about. Yes it has been done before, and im sure it will be done again but none the less it is a challenge that i have decided to accept.

Reason for swap: One of my friends challenged me to make my car AWD. I accepted and he is now helping me prove that it is possible.

Ok enough back information on the matter at hand and lets get to the fun part.

Vechels being used in the swap:
98 Honda Civic Lx
99 Honda CR-V

Goal:
Make the 98 Civic AWD
Make the 99 CR-V derivable with the leftovers.

What i have gathered so far it pretty neat.
Engine bay: Same thing. I love how Honda used the EK chassis in both cars. What this means is that the motor mounts are in the same spots on the frame. Tape measure took care of that.
Another cool feature of using a 98 lx is that it is a 4 door and happens to be the same wheel base as the CR-V.
Thank you again Honda.

Track with however is different. By two inches from wheel center.
Also, sounds dumb but the Civic has no rear diff. (for anyone who is confused with that statement you might want to google it)

Also, trailing arms are different. CR-V has longer and taller ones by an inch or so.
Options:
Move rear strut mounts back or bushing bolts forward. OR custom trailing arms.

Because there is no place to mount the Rear diff, it needs to be built.
Options:
engineer rear to accept CR-V (Sub-frame)(thats what im calling it) OR fabricate own bracing.

Fuel tank:
CR-V uses a saddle tank. There is room under the Civic rear seats allowing tank to be mounted higher? or Fuel cell can be used.

Due to the different track with, axles may need to be custom made for rear.

That is all i have come across so far and i have yet to pull out more than a tape measure. This is a challenge that i am ready to do for the fun of it.

O yea! Timeline, So about that... i only have until mid August because i start school again... So, on of the cars needs to be able to to make a 700 mile trip :D

Now, if you have read all of this you know where i sit. Lay back and watch as i either succeed or miserably fail at this task. The Clock begins now as pre-fabrication takes time.

In the end i feel that it was a 4000 bucks well spent. :rimshot:

Once i figure out how to post attachments Pictures of the cars will be up.
 

phunky.buddha

Mad scientist
Moderator
VIP
Good luck! It's not too hard once you get your brain into the fabrication mindset. If there's a gap, fill it and weld it. :D
 

Ozwald

New Member
More comparisons:

Shift Linkage:
On the d16 it is two rods for shifting. the B20 there is two cables. using the d16 shift linkage in the CR-V will take some modification and the B20 Cables can be replaced by the 01 integra i believe.

OBD II Issues...
CR-V is OBD II B and the Civic is ODB II A. this means to swap motors between the cars i am going to have to repin both harnesses or get corresponding computers.

Wiring Harness:
Because i am swapping the d series into a b series car, the harness is fine. Going the other way i am missing some plugs.
Plugs found missing so far:
knock sensor, ABS, O2 sensor wires too short.

The civic is getting a wire tuck so modification to the harness is in the plan.

Rear suspension:
Strut towers wider on the civic than the CR-V
spare tire well in the way. (may drill out pinch welds and use CR-V rear as trunk)

Off topic but the CR-V comes with a table. That was odd to find.

More information about both cars.
Both started as PA cars and for some reason the underside is clean. all bolts still have their heads and are not rusted to high hell.

Civic was bought in Jan 2012 as an automatic and CR-V was bought 6/30/2013

More info on my goal:
Full swap into the civic. This includes engine, transmission, drive-line, and the ABS. When the CR-V is running with the D16 it will be going up for sale. It will be a nice under-power cruiser and a dog off the line.

Future plans of the civic:
Daily driver, the CR-V drive line is not the strongest so i am going to limit it to 200ish horse until i can fine better components.
Due to the weight difference between the cars, the CR-V is geared lower than the civic for apparent reasons. Will be looking into changing 5th gear to run at a higher ratio for cursing speeds. Also the car needs to be able to run a 700 mile nonstop. Lean burn and turbo will help that eventually.

Link to pictures is to follow. D-series.org
 

phunky.buddha

Mad scientist
Moderator
VIP
Civic was bought in Jan 2012 as an automatic and CR-V was bought 6/30/2013

5/30?

More info on my goal:
Full swap into the civic. This includes engine, transmission, drive-line, and the ABS. When the CR-V is running with the D16 it will be going up for sale. It will be a nice under-power cruiser and a dog off the line.

If you don't think you can get much cash for the CR-V, you might do well just parting the entire thing out instead of spending time/money turning it back into a running car.

Future plans of the civic:
Daily driver, the CR-V drive line is not the strongest so i am going to limit it to 200ish horse until i can fine better components.
Due to the weight difference between the cars, the CR-V is geared lower than the civic for apparent reasons. Will be looking into changing 5th gear to run at a higher ratio for cursing speeds. Also the car needs to be able to run a 700 mile nonstop. Lean burn and turbo will help that eventually.

People have stuffed 400whp through the CR-V driveline without too many issues, so you might be ok. Sourcing higher strength parts for that transmission setup might be a little difficult- you'll probably have to fab your own hardware.

I think 5th gear interchanges with the Accord/Prelude.

like 5th greenhorn to post wanting to do a awd civic , in under 6 mths

It's not THAT hard.
 

Ozwald

New Member
Calesta, Thanks for the info about the transmission. I will look into that. And the swap does not look bad at all. Yes fabrication is needed im not worried, i have a welder helping me.

The goal is a max of 350 horse to keep it street-able.
 

Ozwald

New Member
Alright, tonight i have decided to work out the cv axle problem.

98 Civic track with: 1476mm
99 CR-V track with: 1534mm
Difference of 58mm which is 2.28 inches.
So im going to need to hybrid the axles or fine ones that fit.

Front Axles: 27 splines on transmission
Current splines on civic is 27 and 4 lug
CR-V splines is 28 and 5 lug
The 98 Accord splines 28 and 4 lug
Looks like i am going to need the late 90's accord knuckles to keep the 4 lug if i dont need to hybrid the axles or i can find a 27 and 27 spline axle that is 23.5in long compressed.

The above assumes that the transaxle outputs are positioned in the same location as my D-series

Rear Axles: 23 splines on diff
CR-V splines 23 and 5 lug
Need to do some more research to see if there is a 23 spline 4 lug. if not i will need to make one.

Sticking with the 4 lug because "sleeper"

Looks like i get to compare every axle that autozone has... Will get back on my solution.
 

cjvictoria

Active Member
I'm definitely in for the read! It looks like you've got this well thought out...

Anyways I'm glad you're posting it all, because this info is actually kinda helpful for a project that I'm thinking about doing. Turbo b20 CRV...

It made me wonder if there's any aftermarket brakes setup for a CRV with the stock driveline. Since Accords and Civics seem to have alot more popularity with aftermarket parts manufacturers then having a 4 lug conversion (for what its worth) on a CRV could yield some benefit.

That's just where my mind has wandered after deciding I really want a CR-V...
 

CAFROG

Honda Minion
VIP
In for results :thumbsup:

There is a empty slot on your D-Series Engine Harness Plug (at ECU) for Knock Sensor. Just need a correct pin for that plug and slide it in.
 

Ozwald

New Member
I know the BS on this thread is going to happen but please keep it to a minimum.

Anyways... back to the topic

Because the engine mounts are identical and located in the same spot, as of right now the engine and transmission looks to be a direct bolt in. (we will see how lucky it really is)

Axle solution:
making a hybrid axle seems to be the cheapest solution right now. if i dissasemble one side of the axle and pull the ball and socket off the shaft i can swap the hub joint while keeping the correct lengths for the front.

Because the track with is different between the cars, the rear diff is posing a problem on the paper. 2 1/2 inches is a big difference but because the diff is off set by 2 inches on the CR-V centering it and using the short axle (29 1/8 in. compressed) on both sides would leave a 1/4 inch interference(Assuming the rear diff is the same with as the front). It looks shorter witch would solve the problem but can not confirm. Need a little more research to see if i can fine a shaft that is the correct length.

It is looking like i will need all custom axles which is not a problem until one breaks. To disassemble them is easy.
When i say custom i mean using different spindles with different length shafts. i dont need anything made, just swapped around.

Still looking for a solution for the rear hubs though. im going to measure the bearing race and see if there is another hub assembly that can be pressed in.

Getting the CR-V registered tomorrow hopefully, so that i can legally drive it on the roads. this weekend may be the mechanical beginning.

Because i only own these two cars and have a 30 min commute every day, the CR-V will need to be swapped to the d16 first. As long as it is a pull and drop (almost certain) the CR-V will be down for less than a day.

The d16 shift linkage is the next question. The CR-V uses cables to shift while the civic uses linkage. i will have to relocate the pivot point on the shifter to accommodate for how tall the CR-V shift position is.

Yes im using my 96-98 computer in the 99 harness so repining the connectors will take some time.

May go quiet for a few days because of work but will update when i can.
Also, if any work is done i will be adding it to my folder on the d-series site and post a simple link.

Get ready, im excited, this is going to happen weather you like it or not :p
 

SlushboxTeggy

It's only stupid if it doesn't work
VIP
Dilfuck has no clue how to correctly present this info. I'm putting this out there because I want to see you circumvent the problem and make a true AWD Civic.

What the CRV has is Real time 4wd. What is that?
.For most of the time, only the HR-V’s front wheels are driven; it’s only when they begin to lose grip that the Dual Pump system starts to send power to the rear wheels. This is achieved by a hydraulic torque-split system, consisting of a conventional front-wheel drive arrangement, complete with transfer case, a propeller shaft running the length of the vehicle and a Dual Pump system integrated with the rear differential. This is the heart of the system and comprises two hydraulic pumps, one driven by the front wheels via the prop shaft, the other by the rear wheels via the rear differential.

During normal levels of grip the front and rear wheels, and their respective pumps, turn at the same speed; hydraulic pressure circulates between the two pumps, but no pressure is generated. If the front wheels begin to lose traction and start to spin faster than those at the rear, the two pumps turn at different rates; hydraulic pressure proportional to the difference in their speeds is generated, which in turn opens a valve body and activates a mechanical, multi-plate clutch.

This clutch then connects the front prop shaft to the rear diff, which feeds precisely the correct amount of torque to the rear wheels to re-establish overall traction. The more the front wheels slip, the greater the torque fed to the rear wheels.

Basically, it's only 4wd when it needs to be. It will do better than a normal FWD, but its not a true AWD system. I hope you can look at the info as a challenge more than a problem and figure out how to modify it to work. I hope so, I'd love to see one that truly works and is daily drivable.
 

dc4dude

Member
In for the build... This really does look promising...
 

SlushboxTeggy

It's only stupid if it doesn't work
VIP
My post fell under "BS"? I thought it was helpful information about the CRV system, with no negative comments added. I really want to see this come together. Honestly think that was the first post I've had deleted in 10 years.
 

E_SolSi

Member of the 20 nut club
Moderator
VIP
honestly i just removed most anything that had to do with or quoted anything dickskate said
 
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