Centrifugical Supercharger Vs Turbo

[JDMSpecAccordSir-T]

I am looking into getting a supercharger for my car over a turbo. These are the reasons. Yeah I know a turbo has more potential but i dont want a all out race machine. Besides my car is not the kind that i want to beat up daily (i would have gotten a Civic or Integra for that ).

1)Very little lag compared to the output with standard trim compressor wheel.

2)Turbo Psi Vs SC Psi. A centrifugical SC produces a lot less heat which equates to more horsepower at the same Psi with the same size compressor wheel. This also helps control detonation which is a concern with a high compression motor which already makes alot of heat. This will also allow me to run slightly more boost than with a turbo. Also cooling effect would be a lot more potent with SC w/FMIC vs Turbo w/FMIC at lets say 12 psi (which is the max im aiming for on stock internals). Does anyone disagree that the SC would make more HP/run cooler/less chance for detonation with the same size compressor wheel?

3) Parts. I know i still have to do the fuel part to run boost but i dont have to trash my exhaust manifold in place of a turbo manifold and downpipe

4)There has to be a reason why all NHRA Top Fuel Drag cars went SC over turbo. Maybe because a SC has more low rpm boost, produces less heat and is just generally more effecient than turbos.

5) This one is for all you traction guys who say a SC isnt good for traction. Duh cause it makes alot more power down low in the rpm range than turbo. Just put some slicks on and with a competent driver who can launch properly, a SC car with 12 psi would smoke a turbo car with 12 psi at the strip.

6) Setup. With a turbo you have to run oil lines from the turbo to the oil pan and have to feed the turbo with a fresh supply of oil to keep it running. ProCharger has SC that does not require a oil feed. It is self contained requiring no miantenance.

Anyone who can prove me wrong in the above statements, please do so as i am tired of the Pro-Turbo guys downrating the SC because it takes a little more time and money to set up. While i cant prove these statements with numbers and graphs you cant disprove me either .

 

[posol]

1)Very little lag compared to the output with standard trim compressor wheel.

it will have about the same amount of lag as a small turbo would.

2)Turbo Psi Vs SC Psi. A centrifugical SC produces a lot less heat

says who?
heat is a byproduct of the compression cycle.
turbos' are intercooled. i've yet to see a good supercharger intercooler. i think you will see hotter air with a super.
how do you plan to hook up a FMIC to a supercharger? I've never seen it if it exists... i knwo jackson had an aftercooler or somthing to that effect, but i never saw it in use.

Does anyone disagree that the SC would make more HP/run cooler/less chance for detonation with the same size compressor wheel?

I highly disagree, reasons stated above.

3) Parts. I know i still have to do the fuel part to run boost but i dont have to trash my exhaust manifold in place of a turbo manifold and downpipe

who cares... lol you can sell your header, and buy a nice turbo manifold. and besides, you'd want to step up to a larger manifold such as the Kamikazie for a supercharged application as well.

4)There has to be a reason why all NHRA Top Fuel Drag cars went SC over turbo. Maybe because a SC has more low rpm boost, produces less heat and is just generally more effecient than turbos.

the reason, they are v8's. and they are NOT more efficient than a turbo.

look at the fastest hondas in the world- sub 9 sec cars. not one is all motor, not 1 is supercharged. they are all turboed.

but on top of that, you said above you weren't looking for a race car..... so

5) This one is for all you traction guys who say a SC isnt good for traction. Duh cause it makes alot more power down low in the rpm range than turbo. Just put some slicks on and with a competent driver who can launch properly, a SC car with 12 psi would smoke a turbo car with 12 psi at the strip.

12 psi or any psi for that matter isn't a constant figure. psi is the measure of air pressure at the map sensor, or in other words, the pressure of air NOT getting into the motor.
boost is all about CFM's, not psi.

6) Setup. With a turbo you have to run oil lines from the turbo to the oil pan and have to feed the turbo with a fresh supply of oil to keep it running. ProCharger has SC that does not require a oil feed. It is self contained requiring no miantenance.

running 2 oil lines is not a big deal. most superchargers don't need an oil feed. self contained and non-serivaceble is a BITCH when times comes that it does need service. no matter what anyone says, 100,000 mile no service or not, there's awlays a chance of it messing up, and then youre out 3000, instead of 50 to replace an oil line.

Anyone who can prove me wrong in the above statements, please do so as i am tired of the Pro-Turbo guys downrating the SC because it takes a little more time and money to set up. While i cant prove these statements with numbers and graphs you cant disprove me either .

frankly, i think the supercharger is CHEAPER, and much FASTER to set up. I helped Sisteve put his jackson on his Si. first time going out, it took us two 10 hour days.
the 2nd time, it took 1 12 hour day.
if anyone can get an na car to turbo in 12 hours, my god, they must be pros and work in a pit crew

hopefully, i backed up what i said to give you my opinion, which is turbo > super for all applications other than autoX.

have a ncie day

 

[K2e2vin]

the centrifugal sc makes heat, the roots style doesnt heat up as much b/c it "stacks" air(i dont know if that is true but that is what i have heard). the centrifugal sc is a small turbo that is turned by the engine instead of the exaust, so they heat up like turbos, which is why many companies use AFTERCOOLERS, like the vortech kits.

v8s use sc because its much more compact than having to use two turbos on both sides of the engine. sc arent efficient as turbos b/c they run off the crank for power, while turbos use exaust; a form of wasted energy that can be used.

 

[Slo86GT]

Nah, that's wrong. The roots style blowers are much less efficient than centrifugal SC's. THe roots generates more heat, is a pain in the ass to intercool, and is not a great FI method on a honda high revving 4 cylinder. Yes, some cars out there do very well with a Roots blower, but it takes alot of time, money and patience to get there.

The Vortec kit is nice. Power in lower gears is dismal, but if you do some headwork with good valves and whatnot, you can really put down some nice numbers when you rev the car to high heaven. I'd love to build a b16a HF CRX with a vortec just to see how it hold up. I'd bet 12's easy.

Turbo turbo turbo is always my FI of choice.

 

[JDMSpecAccordSir-T]

You mean a very small turbo. Because that is the only one that doesnt lag and it still wouldnt produce as much "CFM" as a centrifugical supercharger, therefore wouldnt produce as much power which would be a waste of time to put on.

As for the heat issue i was talking about the temperature of the compressed air not in the combustion chamber. all compressor housings are made of aluminum (the same thing they make pots out of) and tends to conduct heat very effiecently. That being said which do you think would be cooler? One that has direct contact with the exhaust manifold (turbo) or one with the compressor wheel remotely mounted (centrifugical supercharger)? There has got to be a difference of at least couple hundred degrees. Detonation occurs when the fuel ignites before it reachs the combustion chamber right? So if you reduce the temperature of the compressed air you reduce the chances of detonation (to a certain degree).

And you can intercool a centrifugical supercharger. it has a compressor housing just like a turbo so i dont see what would stop you from running the air through a intercooler. Unless its a lack of imagination or willpower. Vortech units use a water to air intercooler because it just cools better than an air to air and is more compact. that is why they cost so much.

And really now who the heck is going to buy a stock exhaust manifold (unless its a ITR) for enough cash to for you to buy a turbo manifold. And you still would want to upgrade you intake manifold if you went turbo wouldnt you and then you still have to get a downpipe (more $$ unless you buy a kit, which i am not talking about).

And when i was talking about the 12 psi SC car vs the 12 psi turbo car at the strip lets put it in your terms. 300 CFM (for arguements sake) SC car Vs 300 CFM turbo car. the SC car with low rpm torque and and a broad powerband vs low end lag and a peaky powerband??? who do you think would win

 

[JDMSpecAccordSir-T]

And a turbo system still requires a service every now and again. And $3000 for a new
SC/service. are you joking you just replace the wheel and the gears and new oil. $3000 I doubt that very much. And a turbo has a set of two fins and with a liitle shaft play both could be gone to ruin.

 

[Domeskilla]

just to cut in.. they do make intercoolers for superchargers.. powerdyne or eaton has one for the lightning, altho they sell a belt driven one from powerdyne for the f-150 with an intercooler. They also sell them for the 03 cobra's, listed as "heat exchangers"..

for aftercoolers, Vortech makes a very nice water to air aftercooler.

 

[BigJ]

Seriously though, a vortech aftercooled supercharger takes the stock hp on a b16a2 to about 270hp which is a much bigger increase then any bolt on turbo kits that I have seen with no mods besides exhaust. The only problem with the aftercooled sc is that it costs almost 5g just to get in your car and you could have built a way better turbo set up for that price easily.

 

[K2e2vin]

Originally posted by JDMSpecAccordSir-T@May 25 2003, 06:23 PM
As for the heat issue i was talking about the temperature of the compressed air not in the combustion chamber. all compressor housings are made of aluminum (the same thing they make pots out of) and tends to conduct heat very effiecently. That being said which do you think would be cooler? One that has direct contact with the exhaust manifold (turbo) or one with the compressor wheel remotely mounted (centrifugical supercharger)? There has got to be a difference of at least couple hundred degrees. Detonation occurs when the fuel ignites before it reachs the combustion chamber right? So if you reduce the temperature of the compressed air you reduce the chances of detonation (to a certain degree).

what??? the centrifugal sc sits next to the exaust manifold, so it can heat up also. plus the air is cooled before it goes into the intake manifold on a turbo and aftercooled sc. detonation is when the air/fuel ratio ignites before the sparkplug even fires, caused by compression and/or heat inside the combustion chamber. if the air/fuel mixture ignites in the manifold, it is pretty much just a flame thrower forcing fire into the engine.

 

[JDMSpecAccordSir-T]

Thanks Domeskilla and Slammed for pointing that out for me. While you may have a point with the detonation area because i dont know much about detonation but i do know that the chances for it increases with the amount of air that a engine burns which increases the temperture. Still a cooler intake charge will make more power for sure. The vortech kit is maybe located close to the exhaust manifold but with some exhaust wrap the radiant heat would no longer be a problem. The turbo on the other hand is still directly bolted onto exhaust manifold allowing heat to transfer to the compressor and even if you wrapped exhaust manifold :unsure: it would still heat the compressor being attached directly to it.

 

[JDMSpecAccordSir-T]

The only con with the Vortech SC is the price for a over the shelf kit $3100. A over the shelf turbo kit is not significantly cheaper $2900 (although where you shop makes a difference). I, myself am not going to do a off the shelf job as everyone knows Ebay rules when it comes to prices.

Check out these specs

Erick Aguilars Racing turbo Civic

Stock GSR engine and gearbox
Turbocharged and intercooled with 10 lbs boost
HKS Boost controller
RC 440 injectors
Hondata Stage 2b engine computer upgrade
Erick's Racing fuel pressure regulator

In a tuned B18C (tuned by Hondata at that) 300 hp to the crank w/10 lbs boost (View this at Hondata.com)

A bone stock B16A with Vortech Kit w/ water to air intercooler and and fuel system upgrade 277 hp to the crank with 8-9 lbs boost untuned!!!! (View this at Vortecheng.com)

See where im going with this??

So remind me again why I should go turbo over a centrifugical SC if I dont plan on running over 12 psi (internals are bitch to find for a F20B )??

Another question is would i be able to run 10 psi on a 11.1:1 CR??? Has anyone done it, SC or otherwise????

 

[Domeskilla]

no, you need to go lower CR, no more than 10 and that is on a race car. Go 9.5 for street car.

 

[JDMSpecAccordSir-T]

That would be kinda of difficult and expensive because i would have to get one off 85mm forged pistons and would have to resleave my F20B block to use them (its related to the 97 up H22A and i heard that they have to resleave to run forged pistons) and i still worry if the connecting rod pins would be in the same place as stock. So what is the most amount of boost i could run if at 11.1:1?? thanks. I heard higher compression ratios respond very well to low boost (6-8 lbs). i have 200hp stock.

 

[Domeskilla]

at 11:1 you aren't going to run anything reliably. You'll need hella tuning and high octane gas to keep from pinging/detonating and blowing up. 11:1 is really way to high for an FI application, unless you are john force and can run 18:1 in a superchaged stang that goes in the 6's (maybe faster now, i'm not up on drag racing)

 

[K2e2vin]

Originally posted by JDMSpecAccordSir-T@May 26 2003, 12:32 AM
Still a cooler intake charge will make more power for sure. The vortech kit is maybe located close to the exhaust manifold but with some exhaust wrap the radiant heat would no longer be a problem. The turbo on the other hand is still directly bolted onto exhaust manifold allowing heat to transfer to the compressor and even if you wrapped exhaust manifold :unsure: it would still heat the compressor being attached directly to it.

yes but the air will be cooled to ambient or close to ambient in both apps. the intercooler is like a regulator; whatever the input is the output is the same, depending on the efficientcy of the intercooler.

 

[posol]

i think you should stay all motor with that EDM accord R motor.
thats what i would do.

 

[JDMSpecAccordSir-T]

yes but the air will be cooled to ambient or close to ambient in both apps

In a turbo the compressor is being heated by the exhaust manifold also, being connected to it (where the exhaust turbine and the compressor turbine are housed????). In a SC the compressor gets heated from the ambient air and maybe the gears in the SC (a lot less heat).

As to the compression ratio problem Vortech quite reliably applied boost the S2000 engine and that has a 11.1:1 CR if im not mistaken and made 358 hp 214 ft/lbs to the crank @ 8 psi with stock exhaust and modified fuel system (i think it has injectors, fuel pump upgrade and a FMU). I think my engine should do fine they're both 2 liters and they even sound the same. F20B F20C and every gas station has 93 octane (standard stuff in the islands) and i have acess to 104.

And my engine is not EDM, its fully JDM it was in the top of the line (JDM only) Accord Sir-T and it was the fastest Accord before the Accord Type R came out with Prelude's Type S engine in it and before the Euro R came out with its own unique engine. My car came with LSD tranny with closer ratios, genuine Xenon HID headlamps, special sport seats made by Recaro (not the suede ones though), electronic servos for steering (eliminating PS pump) and special twin muffler exhaust (like the V-6 in the USDM).

EDM engines are lower spec than JDM. ITR for example JDM 220hp, EDM 200hp, JDM CTR 220, EDM CTR 200 etc, etc, etc,

 

[posol]

what year is your car, and what country do you live in? that sounds like a bad ass pimp daily driver

 

[K2e2vin]

Originally posted by JDMSpecAccordSir-T@May 27 2003, 01:07 AM

yes but the air will be cooled to ambient or close to ambient in both apps

In a turbo the compressor is being heated by the exhaust manifold also, being connected to it (where the exhaust turbine and the compressor turbine are housed????). In a SC the compressor gets heated from the ambient air and maybe the gears in the SC (a lot less heat).

i dont think you understand what i am saying. ok the product from the supercharger and the turbo are different, the turbo having hotter air after leaving the turbo outlet. but if they both go into a intercooler(or aftercooler) the end-product will be the same. as in the temp of air entering manifold will be the same in intercooled turbo and sc.

e.gnot actual), and i will use 90degrees as ambient
90degrees-->turbo-->300degrees-->intercooler-->90degrees
90degrees-->sc-->230degrees-->aftercooler-->90degrees
see? the end product is the same. you will only notice a difference if you dont use an air cooling device, which isnt a really good idea b/c you want to get the most power.

 

[JDMSpecAccordSir-T]

And i didnt mean to sound anti-turbo, cuz im not. my close friend has the fastest Honda on the island and its turbo (B16A sleeved, with wiseco pistons, eagle rods, arp headstuds, T3T4 turbo, etc, etc, the works) and im glad for him but thats not for my Accord. I wanted big HP with a smooth, broad, torquey powerband. A SC befits a Accord as it was not meant to be as sporty as the Civic or Integra. Everyone knows a HB B16A/SiR Civic would rule a H22A/SiR Accord in almost every aspect of racing (except maybe rolling start quarter mile and thats another arguement altogther).

I also just want to be fast enough to beat other FF cars with no sweat (ITR, CTR, SiR2 HB Civics, SiR Integras, Toyota GT Turbo Starlet with NOS he gave 5 lengths the last time in the quarter ) and to be able to walk away from them if they tried any thing on the road .

I would like to make a "kit" for my car using either the Vortech unit or the Powerdyne unit but i would need custom mounts, like for a H22A (nobody makes them yet) as it has the same layout (same head and same block) as my engine. Can anyone help me out with this? Anybody know anyone who has custom mounted a centrifugical supercharger to anything it wasnt designed to mount on??