Coffee shop convo: Origins of morals

We may earn a small commission from affiliate links and paid advertisements. Terms

jamesA

Thank you for your business.
VIP
The more dipshits I meet who believe, the more I lean to atheism.

"Science can't prove this, therefore god".

Science can't find everything all at once. 150 years ago you'd most likely die if you got shot in the foot. Just because we haven't discovered the answer yet doesn't mean some ethereal sky daddy rules your life... if you want to call that a life.
 

jamesA

Thank you for your business.
VIP
Oh. Shit. I forgot.

"Morals"

That definition in regards to religion is bullshit.

Apparently god let Adam and eve loose in eden and never educated them as to why the tree was bad? He basically left them too fucking stupid to make any wise decisions. If it wasn't for the badass snake... we wouldn't have free will or critical thinking. God or the bible didn't give us morals.

Getting stabbed for stealing someone else's cup gave us morals...

"Shit. That hurt, maybe I should just buy my own cup. I wouldn't want anyone to be in this kind of pain."

Maybe I shouldn't be drunk posting on HS anymore. I don't know if any of this shit made sense.
 

get_nick

These snozzberries taste like snozzberries...
VIP
"if you need a rubberband to remind you not to do bad shit, pull it back and let it snap you in they eye for being a fucking retard".

or something like that. i can't remember the quote.
 

invisibledemon

Bored
Moderator
VIP
the one guy asked me about theft.

why do we see it as bad to steal something from another person?

because it's mine, and if you take it from me, im not going to like that.

yes, but why? why would you not be ok with it?

if i have something, i have it for a reason, i like it, or i need it, etc. either way, i have it, it's mine. if somebody decides to take it from me without my permission, thats not ok. i want it back, its mine.

thats still not a why. if it wasnt a moral from god, then from where?

from us. humans are animals, territorial animals. very territorial. when I have something, it is mine, it is part of my territory, it is my territory. if another animal decides to sniff around on my territory im going to make it known that it is mine. if another decides that it wants my territory, well, then there will be a fight about it. it's mine, and you cant have it. I dont steal from others, because i dont want things stolen from me.

what about murder? what makes that immoral if not religion?

same as theft: i dont want to be killed, so very possibly that guy doesnt want to be killed either. so, since i obviously see it as a bad thing, then maybe i should not do that to him. hopefully, he has come to the same conclusion and neither of us will kill each other. let me ask, "hey, bob, i dont want to be killed, do you want to be killed, bob?" "no, terry, i dont want to be killed, that doesnt sound ok." "ok, bob, howabout i dont kill you, and you dont kill me? that sound good?" "terry, that sounds great, lets go see if dick feels the same."
done, most people dont want to die, and most people are willing to join in on the pact. most. i would say that the above conversation didnt happen, at least not originally, more of an unspoken agreement. possibly during a fight over a stolen item in which bob was about an inch away from smashing terry's skull in and saw the look of defeat in terry's eyes and realized that terry doesnt want to die over a bone, and neither does he. so, instead of smashing the skull they do man esp and make an eye contact unspoken agreement to not kill or steal from each other because bob will fuck you up or terry will get you when you sleep.
 

hondarin

Please enter a value using 50 characters or fewer.
VIP
Where there is black and white, there is also gray. Some people are born with strong morals, a heightened sense of what is right and wrong, and some people are born with weak morals, almost no sense of what is right and wrong. Most people are somewhere in the middle, they have an idea of what is right and wrong but they have doubts. Everyone can be affected by social situations and learned behavior.

Furthermore, not everyone with strong morals holds true to positive morality. Take for example insane people, criminally insane people, or professional thieves.

On a side note, citing poor people as immoral shows a certain level of ignorance. Morality knows no economic, ethnic, national, or religious barriers.
 

invisibledemon

Bored
Moderator
VIP
i completely disagree with the born with the sense of morality. thats part of the discussion: innate or learned/nature vs. nurture.

while i do believe some people are born a certain way for certain aspects of life, morals falls under nurture. we arent born knowing not to kill or steal, its part of what we learn when we grow up. we all stole something as a kid, not necessarily from a store or whatever, maybe just a toy from the playground. possibly we did it without even knowing that we did it, but when it was found out we were made to return whatever it was and apologize. then we probably had something stolen from us and realized that sucks.

it was a lesson learned, not one already known.

but, there are instances where certain parts of the brain dont develop properly and those lessons arent learned fully or at all.

and the statement about poor people having lesser morals is a slightly ignorant one, yes, but it holds some truth. go into any poor, i mean really poor, neighborhood in your area and and walk around, observe what happens. you'll notice a little less of a moral foundation in those areas. but, people have the ability to learn and grow from those types of lives. not all of them grown up to become immoral criminals. I know the place i grew up is complete shit now. it pretty much was when i was a kid too, but now its much more prominent. i wouldnt live there. my brother moved back there a few years ago, he seems to like it, but the people..... man. he fits in.
 

hondarin

Please enter a value using 50 characters or fewer.
VIP
Go into any rich, I mean really rich, neighborhood, and you will find people with lesser morals. Money has nothing to do with it; the people with money just have better tools for hiding their immorality.

Also, my morality developed with my cognitive skills. By the time I had developed a long-term memory, I had a strong sense of morality. By the time I was four and a half years old, I knew right from wrong. I knew in my being that it was wrong to steal, to hurt people, and I knew that it was important to think of others, and not just yourself.

Just because your sense of morality was not innate, does not mean others do not have an innate sense of morality. Think of all the things that come easily to other people and not you. It's like I said in my first post, it does not have to be black and white. Your personal experience does not apply to all other people.
 

invisibledemon

Bored
Moderator
VIP
Go into any rich, I mean really rich, neighborhood, and you will find people with lesser morals. Money has nothing to do with it; the people with money just have better tools for hiding their immorality.

Your personal experience does not apply to all other people.

I'll give you the rich part. This is true. I'll scratch the poor bias from my thoughts.

But, the back story you gave and this last little bit both go for the learned side too. Personal experience will dictate morals. Along with the whole people naturally being better at something than others, im still not sure that that is something that you are born with. I lean more to the thinking that it all depends on the early childhood experiences and exposures that allowed certain areas of the brain to develop better and allowed you to subconsciously take interest in certain things. And typically when somebody is "naturally" good at something, that just means that they have had plenty of practice, even if the stuff they were doing was not related to the skills, it may still build that part of the brain. The whole left-side/right-side theory of the brain is being watered down and studies are showing that both sides of the brain are being used but different areas of each side are used more by different people.
A person that is easily able to start working on cars without much input as an adult was probably one that tinkered with just taking stuff apart and not necessarily motors. It's not a natural gift, its a learned trait. just not an obvious one.
Morals fall under that too. My personal experiences are not the same as other peoples, I know this. therefore my morals are not the same as other peoples. Not because I was born a moral person, because I was most definitely not. As I have gotten older and had more experiences my morals have formed and solidified. The experiences combined with the individual thought process that we are lucky enough to have allows for the growth of morals in each person. This is why from the rich or the poor, you can have a moral, stand-up, truly good person come out of a cesspool. not because they were born that way, but because at some point they made the choice to not be like that, no matter what that was.

I think to explain it as they were born that way or it was because god chose to make them that way is an insult and a degradation of the difficulties that breaking away from those types of influences entails. Somewhat similar to telling the guy that started off at the very bottom of a company and busted his ass through 20 years of extremely hard work and missed life-experiences to become CEO that it was purely luck that brought him to that position.
 

get_nick

These snozzberries taste like snozzberries...
VIP
Go into any rich, I mean really rich, neighborhood, and you will find people with lesser morals.
please don't say you are a 1% conspiracy guy. You're telling me that Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Oprah Winfrey don't have strong morals? You have to look at it both ways. Just because you are rich, doesn't mean you are amoral.

I think each different aspect of morality comes from different reasons. I don't steal because I can earn what I really want. if you steal, it means you are too lazy or too stupid to obtain it honestly. (yes, some people have addiction and some like to be shitbags, but most steal to get something they won't work for).

Killing on the other hand is a different story. I think some people NEED to be killed. There are a lot of fucked up people out there that get to live freely. I'm not saying I would go "full Dexter", but i know that a LOT of guy who have served in the military would be really happy going full vigilante. The law keeps them from doing it.
 

Briansol

Admins
Admin
VIP
didn't Winona Ryder end up in jail for stealing purses and shit? It's not always about the money... it's about the thrill. same with people who want to have sex in public.... and then run away when they get caught.


the law doesn't stop them.... the consequences of getting caught does.
 

get_nick

These snozzberries taste like snozzberries...
VIP
didn't Winona Ryder end up in jail for stealing purses and shit? It's not always about the money... it's about the thrill. same with people who want to have sex in public.... and then run away when they get caught.


the law doesn't stop them.... the consequences of getting caught does.

But the thrill comes from it being illegal. If it wasn't illegal, it would cut down from those types of thefts. And there there are the pure kleptomaniacs who just hoard, much like squirrels.

Or like Marie from Breaking Bad. She was just fucking nutso.
 

hondarin

Please enter a value using 50 characters or fewer.
VIP
please don't say you are a 1% conspiracy guy. You're telling me that Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Oprah Winfrey don't have strong morals? You have to look at it both ways. Just because you are rich, doesn't mean you are amoral.

I think each different aspect of morality comes from different reasons. I don't steal because I can earn what I really want. if you steal, it means you are too lazy or too stupid to obtain it honestly. (yes, some people have addiction and some like to be shitbags, but most steal to get something they won't work for).

Killing on the other hand is a different story. I think some people NEED to be killed. There are a lot of fucked up people out there that get to live freely. I'm not saying I would go "full Dexter", but i know that a LOT of guy who have served in the military would be really happy going full vigilante. The law keeps them from doing it.
You OBVIOUSLY didn't read my other posts where I said money doesn't matter! Rich and poor people alike may be immoral, or they may have strong morals. Money, religion, ethnicity, nationality, etc do not determine morality! You will find immoral people anywhere.

That is also a reason why I contend that it is a natural trait that may be modified or influenced by outside factors. @invisibledemon I agree with you that morality is influenced by outside factors, and I even said so before, but that does not mean it does not have innate factors.

Also, I never said god gave you morals. It's a natural trait like muscle density, metabolism, etc that can be modified by outside factors.

Also, please read all my posts in this thread if you want to quote me. I believe it is common courtesy not to quote someone out of context. Too often people latch on to one little detail without examining and understanding the entire message.
 

tab

Super Moderator
Money is a factor, but not a direct link. Different subjects react differently to the same stimuli. Just like when one person may cower when punched, and others get angry and retaliate. Socioeconomic factors can influence other parts of their lives. I don't see good or bad in most people, just learned responses. A young man growing up with a single mother working two jobs may turn to crime due to lack of parental guidance. Someone else in that same situation may hit the books and push for college. A rich kid with absent parents could be almost exactly the same in either direction. Obviously nature and nurture play roles in all of our lives, in every aspect.
 
Top