D16z6

[lsvtec]

How about you show us your never ending knowledge of chemistry. I am not a chem major, but the chem that I have taken suggests freezing these parts is not going to increase their strength much, if any, above heat treating alone. That site gives a lot of market hype, but their true info content is 0. They partially quote the National Bureau of Standards in a statement that says heat treating steel helps form a stronger lattice, but nowhere in this quote does the NBS say anything about the benifits of further cooling the heat treated steel. Then the site goes on, and I quote:

Precipitation of eta Carbide: In a study performed at the Jassy Institute in Romania, researchers used a scanning electron microscope with a microscopic particle counter to evaluate additional changes in the structure of cryogenically treated steel.

Additional changes over what? They do not specify. You are supposed to make the "obivous" connection to "over heat treated steel", but anyone that is even the slightest bit skeptical can see through it.

Next you provide a list of teams from their website that "use" this process. What you do not tell us is how many of those teams actually pay for this process and how many get it as part of a sponsorship deal. Anyone running a race team knows that the conpanies that sponsor you give you the cash you need to win. Duh. So if some company comes along and says "We want to sponsor your team as long as you let us do X to your engine parts and you say good things about our product." The team manager then says to himself "We get extra money from a company that wants to do X to our engine parts. I don't konw if it will help, but I know it won't hurt." The answer is, of course, YES. If I was running a race team and some company told me they wanted to dip my pistons in donkey piss before I installed them and I knew it wouldn't hurt anything, I'd let them do what ever they wanted for that sponsor money.

Last you claim personal experience. Have you used parts that were only heat treated as opposed to heat treated and then frozen and had the heat treated parts fail where the forzen parts did not? Keep in mind that you cannot say that freezing works better than just heat treating unless you have experienced this more than once with the exact same parts. Otherwise it would be attributed to a mis-cast or other unfortunate error. I want scientific proof, not second reguritation of hyped up market mumbo jumbo.

Thank you, please drive through.

 

[hcivic.com]

The cyro process is a step beyond heat treating the heat treat the parts but rather than stopping at 0 it goes down to -400
So to continue the process further the way heat treating works is not the heating but the cooling that adds strength
I have talked to them on the phone the only sponsor a few teams most actually pay for this service they are not the only company that does it

 

[lsvtec]

Great, you can give us the same info that their site does + tell us that some teams pay for it. You still can't prove that it actually does anything over simply heat treating. It doesn't matter how many companies do it, if 18234 different companines made the same crap that APC sells I still wouldn't buy it.

 

[hcivic.com]

I have used both heat treated and cyrod parts the cyrod are heat treated at the same time so the are just as strong I have used heat treated parts and non I have only ever broke one rod ( went trough block ) It was a non heat treated part I have never had a problem with a cyrod part but the main thing to remember is tuning if you tune it right it will last

 

[hcivic.com]

As it is heated then cooled unused carbon is expended so as to creat an stronger metal

 

[lsvtec]

That was never part of the argument. Tuning is the key to anything making good and reliable power figures. The argument was does freezing parts after heat treating them make a significant difference above just heat treating them to be worth paying for. I say no and your evidence supports that claim.

 

[lsvtec]

Originally posted by hcivic.com@Jan 9 2003, 04:05 PM
As it is heated then cooled unused carbon is expended so as to creat an stronger metal

But there is no reliable proof anywhere that says this is solely due to the freezing process happening after the heat treating instead of being a benifit of heat treating alone.

 

[hcivic.com]

ok the one cyro proces is fairley cheap almost the same as most heat treating places so what extra are you paying for ?
and kes it does scientificaly work it takes like 15 formulas to prove and so much extra work I am not going to start I gave him somthing to try to save him money short of buying new rods it is the cheapest way to add strength.
Phone up One Cyro toll free and talk to a tech the will explaine it to you if you still dont believe it works than ok

 

[hcivic.com]

the freezing is part of the heat procces the heat treat but rather than quinch with H2O the quinch with liquid nitrogen so to make the procces more effective

 

[lsvtec]

Originally posted by hcivic.com@Jan 9 2003, 04:09 PM
and kes it does scientificaly work it takes like 15 formulas to prove and so much extra work I am not going to start

15 formulas isn't much. I am interested. Please post them.

 

[hcivic.com]

If you want I will post tommorrow I have to go get the outa the text books but I am not doing that tonight I have seen enough of them for one day

 

[JBHonda]

Well I thnik Im Going to stick my pistons in my Freezer befoer i put them in My engine. Might be a little cold though.

 

[hcivic.com]

the cyro process is 400 degreees below zero and it is done at the same time as heat treating before you talk why dont you all phone them up and let them explaine ti to you

 

[Distorted]

Dear lord. This is not supposed to be an arguement over what works, whats better, etc. Way off topic now, but ill have some fun with it. First of, Cryo treatment would (in theory) work. I have no interest in typing out all the detailed chemistry involved, so ill break it down super simple. heat causes expansion, cold causes contraction. So say you heat up a rod, this would cause extreme expansion based on temperature and the composition of the rod. Now. When you expand the rods composition, "bad" elements have a chance to more towards the surface(i know there are terms for this, but its not key to the arguement). When you cool the rod, it will force these elements into new positions, or it could completely expell them from the rods composition, thats what makes Heat treating/tempering work. Now you say -400 as a temp. -400 what? Celsius, Kelvin, Fahrenheit. Doing things like that to stock rods could be potentially dangerous. Liquid Nitorgen is nothing to take lightly. You could easily shatter a rod in the procces if its seen signifigant use or extreme wear. Those teams that use this process are not doing this to OEM engine parts. Everything - for the most part - is custom made, or preforged for strength. Im trying to knock your idea. It has merit. Im just saying i'd put money on forged products over Cryo treatment any day. Now, cryo treated preforged products, thats probably even better. It seems like a very cost effective way to get results.

hcivic.com
Posted on Jan 9 2003, 05:07 PM

I have a d series block set to run 14 psi and the only mods are a new ecu (Aftermarket for tune ability) and new injectors but I got the engine cyrod first.

This worries me. Have you done this before? I can tell you from experience its not going to end up being very reliable unless you have one amazing tuner(maybe this is you) and even then, its risky. we've tried it, and Im about to do it again on my D series setup. You'll need a fuel pump, possibly a rising rate system depending on the injector size you choose and if you want to raise the boost in the future. Thats all ill say right now until I either get flamed or someone posts something else interesting. Good luck on your Cryo'd Engine, Im going to look into it myself to see if it might be worth testing.

Rob

 

[hcivic.com]

thank you he asked what he can do for little money and I told him
for about 100 they will do all his parts
I have had stock prts treated before without a problem
you have to inspect to ensure there is no cracks harilines etc first
they don't tend to screw up they have benn doing it long enough now that they know what they are doing

 

[JBHonda]

You say its only about 100 bucks. I live in Fl man the shipping alone would be enough for me to buy a new car.

 

[hcivic.com]

they have two locations and they do lose parts
so dissaseble the engine
pistons 8/each
rods/knucles 5/eack
valves/2 each
it not that bad I live in canada and got shipped for 50 us there and back

 

[JBHonda]

their locations are in WA and Alaska. I live in FL. If you dont know where that is sense your in canada ... that is across the country.

 

[hcivic.com]

I know where that is and there are other companeys that offer the same service I am shure there is a place near you

 

[phunky.buddha]

Damn, tons of info in this thread... tons of bad info too, but mostly good info.

HMC- welcome to the board. I like your input.

Hexen- that list of prices looks pretty damn familiar... who wrote it?

Cryo stuff:

If you just freeze your parts from room temperature, you're not going to do shit to the grain structure. The whole idea of cryo treating your parts is to freeze the grain structure at a certain point in the cooling process- so you first have to heat the metal enough to cause the grains in the metal to start reforming and merging with each other. I don't have all my grain structure and phase change diagrams in front of me with all the alpha/beta/gamma/etc points, but trust me- if you heat to the right temperature, then quench to a super cool temperature- you'll cool the metla fast enough to freeze it at a stronger grain structure. There really IS a difference between .1 seconds to freeze and .05... it all depends on where the metal phase is at, and what the grain composition is at freezing. If the cryo company is just heating to some arbitrary temperature and then dipping in liquid nitrogen, they could easily end up with a weaker part than they started with- but heating to the exact right temperature and then quenching immediately with liquid nitro to freeze the metal structure at the strongest phase WILL increase strength. How precise is the cryo company? I'm curious...

If you really want proof, I'll take pictures of my materials processing books and post the phase information here. I've actually done strength and hardness testing with different quenches from the same heated temperature, and different quences DO make a difference. Just putting parts in the freezer isn't going to do a damn thing though...