Kyoto for the Car

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Before I go on to a rant, Let me tell you that I love this program, and I'm going for it. I'm alittle put out about their methods of rating your car (My 4Runner 4 cylinder which passes emissions WAY below standards, and gets upwards of 30mpg is lumped in with a Hummer H2) but the idea is sound, and has a possibility of taking off.

Why did I call it "Kyoto for the Car?"

The Kyoto pact assigns a certain number of pollution units. Businesses buy units to judge how much they pollute. After their units are used up, they MUST stop business until next year. So sad, too bad. Companies can also trade units for money, selling off unused pollution units to small developing countries and gouging them for all they are worth. Japan has already bought up all but a few Kyoto units.

The US didn't do that, and here is why: We already HAVE a system in place that is like that. Only our system doesn't force a shutdown after exceeding - It merely puts a cost on all "loaned" pollution units. It's been around for over a decade now, and it's called "The Chicago Climate Exhange". Since we already have a system that is more stringent, and yet better for companies (They don't have to buy price-gouged units from other countries / industries) we have turned down Kyoto.

And TerraPass uses the Chicago Climate Exchange. So it's the american version of Kyoto. Now, here is why I challenge you:

If you don't buy into this program you'll prove to be the same type of person that you have blasted for not going with the Kyoto pact. End of argument.

I'm doing it, I wanna see how many people here do it as well.

Oh, and another point, if this program is successful, we will see it as a permanent replacement for any state's Emissions Program. that's right, you can mod all you want - When you go for emissions you WILL pass, because there is no fail. You'll be charged based on your pollution contribution (High emissions, you have to buy 2 units of TerraPass to get a pretty Terra sticker)

They keep 10% or less of their money, only to get out of being called a Not-for-profit company (NFP companies can't get capital, and all incoming investments must be in foundation grants - Which in turn, are illegal to go towards government spending programs like wind power, solar and the like)

Will this make a difference ? Actually - Yes. For driving your car, you're going to pay an environment group to buy units from the Chicago Climate Exchange and remove them from play. That means that companies need to work to get a more environmentally friendly method, or the CCX credits will be gone. If you drive a gas guzzler, you will have a dandy little sticker to display that shows you have given to energy-alternative resources - Actively.

Tax write-offs? Nope. The intent is to make THIS the emissions program of the future. Scientists and Politicians alike realise that the real pollutants don't come from cars - Cars run so fuckin clean nowadays that they are neglible in the scheme of things. But they are part of the problem. Now the rest is this fine question:

"How do we transfer funding from the industrial sectors to the renewable resources sector?"
"Why does a Honda owner pay the same for environmental causes and government programs as an Excursion driver?"
"Why have we found an effective way to get land use and pollution monies from ATV and Dirtbike riders, and not an effective way to get it from cars?"

All of these questions are answered by this program. But they can't do it without our support.

Cliff's Notes: Buy Terrapass or you're a bolshevik weenie, Hippy.

-> Steve
Also, a program like this satisfies my emissions-avoidance from my maine registration. So now I pay Taxes in my state, and I have a form of emissions testing / fees that are government connected, if not supported.

-> Steve
Missing the point. You gotta do it now, so the program can gain popularity enough to work - So you never get your state-wide emissions testing.

-> Steve
I'll buy one for the Z. The problem is, 70% of the people in Oregon don't even KNOW there's emissions testing, because it's only implemented in 2 cities as far as I know.


so let me get this straight

im gunna end up paying an extra $50 per car, per year for NOTHING.... yeah yeah businesses dont get to use the polution points i buy.... :gives: im still paying an extra $100 and not getting a damn thing for it... still have to pay the $20 or whatever per car every other year to get emission tested plus $50 per car, per year in hopes that someday i might not have to pay the $20 per car every other year?????? thats just fucking stupid
current polution levels dont bother me at all


That was an intelligent comment.

Celerity if I had extra money I'd buy one, but at the moment, my bills and college are precedent. I really liked how you presented this, and yeah...Good job. [pat on back.jpg]


Originally posted by Battle Pope@Jun 22 2005, 12:33 AM
If statewide emissions testing ever becomes law in Oregon, I'll definitely do this.
[post=515062]Quoted post[/post]​

It should be a law in every state, but that's right no one gives a shit about how we abuse our environment because we'll all be dead in 50 year, we'll leav ethe problem to our kids
Like I wrote before the 2004 elections - We're on the cusp of some very neat things. Doing without gasoline isn't scary at all - in fact I can't wait. There are going to be so much more alternatives out there coming up, that by 2010 if we play our cards right, we'll be in more powerful, fun to drive cars than we ever thought possible.

But we need to spearhead the efforts - Particularly, being that we are the most intelligent car modders in the world. We lead by example (Check out the other swapping communities.)

The Prius has over 300 lbs/ft of torque. No shit. It's only a matter of interest to bring that power to the world of cars. I believe that the future holds rumbling exhausts, 10" wire tires, 6 speed manuals and adjustable driving settings (Examples: in 1988 the car world that the imports would forever spell the end of hard shifting, fun the thrash cars with nasty stances and rumbling exhausts - Look at the world today - It's more powerful, cheaper to own, and more menacing than ever. another example of tech gone hot rodding: The Nissan 6 speed CVT profile transmission. The driver gets to setup the behavior of the transmission, including clutching and shift points. It routinely handles 300+ hp without a hiccup)

So the world is moving forward, and where it moves is up to us - That's not just a bullshit pep talk either, this is what history has shown us. When things look really bad, somehow the hobby manages to survive, and thrive and progress forward. The mid 70s gas crisis, high prices at the pumps in the 80s, emissions regulations in the 90s and now the end of cheap oil is no different.

In my old age (Holy shit, I'm 29 tomorrow) I've learned that when you work WITH the system, instead of against it, you have a very real effect on the outcome - And it's lasting. That's why I'm a republican :)

-> Steve
Remember, though, that the 300 ft-lbs is only realized very low in the rpm range. While it helps the Prius get off the line nicely, power quickly drops away and the car behaves more like your standard gasoline-powered car. I think the Prius still has a 0-60 time in excess of 10 seconds.

What sorts of fuel alternatives are you seeing as being viable in 5 years?


Only VIABLE new fuel source i see in 5 years is probably veggie diesel. Other than that its probably gonna be at least 10 years of R&D for something like H2 cells
Definitely. Hydrogen fuel is a great concept, but the problem is: How do you process the hydrogen into its usable form? Currently, it's through non-sustainable and pollutive methods and fuels, so the total energy consumption is as much as petroleum-based fuel, or even more.
It seems like an interesting system, but if you are paying based on the emissions that the car produces, why is it that no matter what car i choose and milage i input there is a 29.95 minimum? I mean if were were paying a flat rate per unit of emissions produced i would understand, but having a car that produces less emissions or driving less milage per year seems to entail an unfar per unit fee. Seems unfair to punish those of us with lesser emissions producing vehicles by making us pay more per unit.

Funny thing about republicans, I'm pretty sure they're not going to like this very much. At least the republicans that own transportation businesses. Not to turn this into a political discussion but i think that we can see by their reluctance to adhere to current emissions and pollution standards that any increase in fees (the inevitable result of the bourgeoisie being held to account for their pollution) will be attacked. If you look at this administration's relaxing of environmental standards, as well as their denial of environmental problems, i think you may find that your party wouldnt much like a program like this.
I'd like to see how diesels fit into this scheme too.
In response of all matters raised:

Guy: There is a minimum now, But won't be in the future. The fairness will come into play when TerraPass actually has access to emissions testing gear. When they can review your readings, they will be able to hit for what you may owe. To play on the CCX, you need to buy at least one Unit, which for the TerraPass people starts at $30. They may split the stocks (like NYSE does) and you will be able to buy lesser amounts. They may also charge for units depending on states. Like in California, the state wants to charge more in the LA area - So that they can work on cleaning it up more. (Schwarzenegger condones this, and he's republican) As far as republicans, what we see mostly are people trying to defend what's "theirs". Most fat-cat industrialists are Republican, and those kind of republicans will endorse slavery if it puts more money in their pockets. We call people like these "Assholes", regardless of political affiliation (Theresa Heinz-Kerry fits in this model). Senator McCain (R-AZ) loves this program, yet finds lots of flaws in the current Emissions models (Which is why he has ripped emissions from his state. An Arizonian can tell us more about this) As far as the "Current Administration" you need to read more into their environmental plan to understand it - On the surface it looks downright evil, but when you analyse who and what it serves, and how it serves it - it looks better and better.

dohcvtec_accord: You're absolutely correct. Hydrogen power is only truly efficient and renewable when derived from renewable resources. Look into Iceland's model for fuel generation. It's 100% free and renewable. (Read about the King, who in the 70s (when he began buying oil) said "This is utter horseshit" and has dedicated his life to freeing Iceland from fossil fuels). Wind power, solar, and hydro-electric generations (I am not allowed by law to speak of another BEAUTIFUL form of energy, CNG) are the keys to generating electricity to bottle Hydrogen.

Ricochet: Biodiesels come with their own little evils as well. The biomass fields again play into international trading, and Columbian companies that often employ slave labor will win on bids, always. Until biodiesel is regulated and honorable, we will never truly love it.

dohcvtec_accord: For the Prius, keep in mind that this is the first (Well, the Insight as well, which is a superior hybrid system) system of its kind. The first fuel burning cars got one gallon per 25 minutes of running. It will get better, and with today's drive - We can easily see high-powered cars running on little or no fossil fuels. We WILL adapt.

On a parting note, I'm not that old - But I do have a great memory. Anyone here remember Leaded gas ? Leaded Gasoline is AWESOME. Burns clean, has a high potency formula, and was nothing to refine. We switched to Unleaded fuels, and were dual-pumping fuels for the longest time in the US. It took about 6 years to completely wipeout Leaded fuels from the pumps, and we can do it again. Every wonder why new Dodges have, in their user manuals, "Use ONLY 87-89 octane fuels?" That's because auto manufacturers are making preemptive moves to a new format of fuels that may be on the horizon. Just like cars had "Unleaded fuel only" printed in plain site for so many years. Other cars have "Use High Test Octane Only" labels. It's all about preparation. If you observe minor cues like this, you can get a feel for the trends of fuels.

Leaded fuel engines run at a very high compression; like, 12:1 or more. When people simply switched to Unleaded, the motors would ping and ultimately die. Lots of the original "Muscle cars" from the 60s were more potent then than today because of this. Leaded fuels contain a perfect chemical equation for combustion.

-> Steve
Not that easy to tell... Check the compression, then look at the valve surfaces. Leaded fuel cars required Decoking and had deposits on the valve shafts. Also, look at the exhaust ports for actual build-up. Finally, if the heads are coming off the Piston sleeves are a great way to tell - Lead deposits into piston abrasion grooves, like filling in a record.

-> Steve
The heads aren't coming off, unfortunately. Well, we might pull the heads to check the head gaskets. I might have to run the casting numbers.

I know that the heads are DOVE-C.
d-zero-ve-c. You'll get more info on them if you use the correct nomenclature :)

-> Steve