1987 Civic Hatchback Swap options?

[Psycho0124]

Vehicle Specs:
• 1987 Honda Civic STD Hatchback
• 4 Speed Manual Transmission
• Stock aside from clutch, intake and exhaust, and

Engine Specs:
D13A2
Found in 1984-1987 USDM Honda Civic/CRX 1.3
• Displacement: 1342 cc
• Power: 60 hp @ 5500 rpm
• Torque: 73 lb*ft @ 3500 rpm
• Bore: 75 mm
• Stroke: 76 mm
• Fuel Control: Carburetor
• Valve train: 12v


I have been driving my ol 1987 Honda Civic for nearly 10 years now and have noticed some troubling symptoms starting to develop over the last year or so. The motor runs like crap when its cold out and acceleration is getting more and more jumpy. I have started to see more and more oil on the #3 spark plug and I am betting that its compression is shot although I haven't tested it yet. The valve train on the motor is getting damned noisy as well so I am betting my valve guides and seals are worn out. I guess after 20 years of stalwart performance, the motor has every right to be a little worn...

:worthyp:

Anyway I have a couple thousand bucks to play with and I have been considering 2 options:

1. Find a used head (maybe a 16v head from a D15A2?) and give it a good rebuild and PnP and put it on when I've got it just right (and hope the bottom end is ok).

2. Find a used motor that will mount up with minimal modification and rebuild it over time. New pistons, seals, bearings, balanced crankshaft etc.. If you have the motor in hand before the vehicle needs it, theres a lot you can do to add performance.

I am sure I could find another D13 to put in but if I am going to go to the trouble of pulling the motor, I would really prefer to put in something a little beefier. After some research, my first thought is the following motor:

D15A2
Found in:
• 1987 USDM Honda Civic/CRX 1.5,• 1987 USDM Honda Civic/CRX HF
• Displacement: 1488 cc
• Compression: 9.6:1
• Power: 76 @ 6000 rpm
• Torque: 84 lb-ft @ 3500 rpm
• Bore: 74 mm
• Stroke: 86.5 mm
• Fuel Control: Carbureted, CVCC

It is carbureted like my existing motor so I wont have to do an overhaul of the fuel system. Since it came in the same year and body style of civics, I cant imagine the mounts could be all that different. As far as the wiring and vacuum systems go tho, I really have no idea. Its like Medusa's head under my hood with all these emission controls and stupid vacuum lines.

Anyway, will this D15A2 mount into my D13A2 shell? Is there a better motor that will mount easily? If the swap is going to be a nightmare, will the D15 16-valve head mount to my D13A2? Is there a superior head I could choose?

Much thanks for reading all this. If theres any more information I can provide just let me know. I love my Honda like a member of the family and would love to have it around at least a couple more decades.

 

[phunky.buddha]

If you have cash to burn, you might want to consider something like this for a serious power upgrade:

Hasport Performance Inc.

I assume that you're outside the US if you have a D13. I don't know how a D15A fits, but it sounds like it would work without much modification at all. The mounts are probably in the same place.

 

[Psycho0124]

::

Yeah it would be really nice to jam a B16A in there and its great to see that there is hardware specifically for this. Still, this car is equipped with a carb and I would need to do some major modification to the fuel system (not to mention the engine control system). I need to minimize down-time on the car tho as it is my primary daily driver. I am sure my wife would get herself killed the first time she went to full throttle and the VTEC engaged anyway.

No I am in the U.S. I live about 250 miles southwest of you down in Corpus Christi. My wife has family over in Magnolia just north of Houston and I think we have driven through Lufkin a few times. It is definately an odd-ball motor though and I dont know that I have ever seen another one like it here.


I guess I'll start hunting around for a D15A2 head to rebuild. Do you have any tips on where I might look to see if the head will bolt to my D13A2?

 

[phunky.buddha]

Ohhhhhhh sorry. 1987. That's why I was thinking that it was from outside the US. I honestly didn't think about it, and I don't have much knowledge of the engines before the 4th generation Civics started in the 1988 model year.

You should put Corpus in as your location in your profile! It's good to see another Texan on the board. I have quite a few friends in your area, and one of the moderators on the board actually lives near you as well.

The first thing you want to do if you want to put another head on the engine is to see if the head gasket patterns match up. If they do, then chances are that a head swap will work. If you look on hondaautomotiveparts.com, they have pretty good exploded view drawings of all the parts that go into each assembly on pretty much every car. I don't know if they go as far back as 1987 though. You might want to call and ask!

As far as putting a B block in there, you could go cheaper and drop in a B18A/B or B20B/Z. Those blocks aren't as high revving as the B16, but they still put out almost as much power and quite a bit more torque. You wouldn't have to worry about wiring up VTEC either.

 

[Psycho0124]

B18B1
Found in:
1994-2001 USDM Acura Integra RS/LS/GS/SE
Displacement: 1834 cm³
Compression: 9.2:1
Power: 142 hp @ 6300rpm
Torque: 127 lb/ft @ 5200rpm
Redline: 6800 rpm
Bore: 81.0 mm
Stroke: 89.0 mm
Specific output: 77.4hp/liter


My little D13A2 makes 60 horses giving me a power to weight ratio of about 23:1 (terrible I know..). My car only weighs around 1600 lbs so this thing would leave me with a power to weight ratio of like 11:1.Iirc that would put it right up there with the Corvette..

So what I would need to do it:
A B18B1 Longblock -----------------------------(Easy. Will rebuild with high performance parts)
B-series 5-speed transmission ---------------(Easy to find. Is there a cable actuated version?)
Custom halfshafts-------------------------------(Little worrying but Hasport seems to have them (gonna need to get the integra hubs pressed in)
Engine Mount kit --------------------------------(Very easy. looks like it incudes the tranny mount)
Shift linkage -------------------------------------(Doable. gonna have to fabricate something probably)
Intake and exhaust manifolds ---------------(Easy)
Throttle Body -----------------------------------(Easy to find)
Hydraulic crap for clutch-----------------------(Tricky.. probably some heavy modification to the clutch pedal (my clutch is cable actuated atm).
New fuel pump---------------------------------- (Is this all I need for an FI motor?)
ECU------------------------------------------------ (Very worried)
Starter, distributor, Ignition coil, alternator, and other various engine accessories depending on what comes on the long block I get.

Its a big project. The mounts will make it alot easier and I feel pretty confident that I can pull off all the mechanical stuff. I have a couple concerns tho. I have worked with large carbureted engines in the past (jammed a 440in³ 6-pack (3 2-bbl carbs) into a '74 duster as a little hot-rod project with my father a few years ago (the thing was a death machine.. We had to chain the damn motor to the strut tower to keep it from torqueing over and breaking engine mounts at full throttle)) but I am pretty damned noobish when it comes to fuel injected motors. What exactly will be involved in getting my shell ready for a fuel injected engine? I'm guessing a fuel pump from a FI Honda (mounted in the tank) and maybe a beefier fuel line running up from the tank to handle the higher pressure?

Also, while I build PCs and am experienced with electronics repair, I have never really messed with the more complicated engine control units before. What all am I going to need to do in the way of electronics to get this baby purring in my shell? When I get an ECU for this motor, what kind of inputs (aside from the sensors on the motor) will I need to provide to it to get the motor to run well? I think I am gonna go grab a chiltons on the 94 Acura Integra and nose around in its wiring diagrams tomorrow.

Btw, thank you again for the help man. Its damned appreciated.With a little bit of help with the electrical stuff, I think this will be quite a fun little project!

 

[rollz87civic]

Redpepperracing.com

 

[phunky.buddha]

There are actually quite a few things to prepare for if you attempt this swap. The HASport mounts make getting everything into the engine bay fairly easy, but getting the engine to behave isn't necessarily easy.

On the ECU side of things, you pretty much need to fool the ECU into thinking that all the sensors are hooked up and behaving. There are quite a few that you can leave out and still have a perfectly running engine, but I can't tell you which ones they are off the top of my head. Some poking around this forum and a few others that are more specialized towards this type of swap (like Red Pepper Racing linked above) will help.

One of the easiest ways to take care of the electronics is to run a non-OBD system (1991 and previous model years) and use a program like TurboEdit or GhettoDyne to hack the ECU. You can fool all kinds of sensors with those programs, and rewrite fuel/ignition maps too. There are a good number of pre-made maps for these ECUs out on the tuning forums that can maintain the stock settings while turning off all kinds of sensors. I think PGMFI.org is one of the really heavily technical forums that covers ECU tuning/hacking, but read up before you post there- they're not really ignorant n00b friendly.

Another option is to go with a standalone. If you're halfway decent with soldering and know your way around a circuit diagram, MegaSquirt is a good setup to try. For about $350 you can have a complete custom ECU that will run your engine based on whatever fuel/ignition maps you want to throw in it. I've considered running MegaSquirt for a few of my cars before, but I've always wanted to keep all the factory ECU capabilities intact (AC, AC cutout etc). It's a really good system if you're willing to jump to it though.

On prepping your car for FI, you do need the higher pressure fuel pump, the power wiring to support it (easy), fuel lines that can handle the higher pressure fuel, and a return line back to the tank.

Clutch- there are quite a few kits out there (HASport makes a ton too) that will convert a hydraulic clutch setup to work in a cable clutch car. I've never had to play with one of the linkages, but you get to keep the cable to the clutch, and it pulls some kind of lever linkage to push the master/slave cylinders around on the hydraulic transmission. Those conversion kits are good, but if you want to go whole-hog and convert to a full hydraulic setup all the way back to the pedal, Tilton makes really nice aftermarket kits. Beware the $$$!

Power- the power figures you're reading are for stock applications. If you run a fuel/timing map set up for 93 octane gas, then pipe in a decent intake/header/exhaust system with that B18, you could easily push 160hp or more at the crank without even having to go inside the engine. Go with a larger displacement B20B/Z engine, and you could go even higher. There are a number of people out there who support the "non-VTEC" crusade, and quite a few make really impressive power numbers without going to a VTEC head. I've seen a dyno chart for 175hp at the wheels on a B18 with only big cams and really good tuning on pump gas. Accounting for driveline loss, that comes out to 200-205hp at the crank. Up the compression and displacement and you could go quite a bit farther. Just remember, $$$!

 

[Jish87]

all of this was awesome, I'm just now starting the same swap on my 87 civic hatch. I was a bit lost but a lot of this hellped out. I'm sure you've already fixed up a large part of the project but these are the mounts that i just found
Innovative Mounts Steel Mounts 1984-1987 Honda Civic/CRX with B-Series Motor Mounts - P/N: 18750

The only thing i'm looking into now is which axles to get. I know hasport has customs but I've heard that 86 - 87(-89) integra axels should fit right in given that the mounts dont get in the way.
Good luck with this build!

 

[phunky.buddha]

Wow, glad it helped 5 years later!

Quite a few things have changed in the market since I wrote that post in 2007.