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b18c1 build

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by gsr x civic, Dec 15, 2006.

  1. gsr x civic

    gsr x civic New Member

    hey guys. i had an 18g greddy turbo kit. . . but now i'm selling it to go all motor! i haven't even used the turbo yet, lol!

    anyway. just felt that was necessary to say :)

    right now, i'm running a b18c1 in a eg coupe, intake, exhaust, header, p28 chipped ecu, vafc, exedy stage 1 clutch, stock axles, stock pistons, stock gsr trans, etc.

    anyway. . . i was planning on building my motor. i was looking into cam set ups, but now i'm just wondering on a few things. i'm planning on getting a skunk2 stage 2 cam setup (266 @ 12.3mm intake / 262 @ 11.8mm exhaust) . along with this, i was planning on getting skunk2 valves, valvesprings, cam gears, and retainers. is this overkill? i know i shouldn't be using oversized valves, but i don't know if the skunk2 valves would be oversized, since it is made from skunk2. are retainers even necessary? i read somewhere that with the cams, itr valves would work well, or port flow would work just as well. does it matter?
    these are pretty much closely paired to jun stage 3 cams, but they're much cheaper and are very reliable as well, according to stupid reviews :)
    anyway, any help that could point me to the right direction would be great.

    thanks in advance.
  2. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator

    for an all motor build, id get stock sized valves, skunk2 stage 2 cams rock, so good choice there.

    the problem with those cams, they love compression. Switch your p72 pistons for some p30s and youll notice better gains out of the cams.
  3. gsr x civic

    gsr x civic New Member

    by "getting stock sized valves" do you mean leave my stock ones on there? i was possibly thinking going itr intake valves and keeping the exhaust valves stock.

    what are p30 pistons? i've never heard of them.
  4. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator

    leaving your stock ones there work, or you can go with skunk2 for a lighter valve train (negligible gains).

    p30 pistons are pistons from a jdm b16.
  5. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator

    they also like to hit the pistons if they are oversized.
  6. gsr x civic

    gsr x civic New Member

    blanco, i just thought getting aftermarket valves (not oversized) was how to do the build properly, just like getting forged internals if you wanted to go boost at high psi. (bad analogy :huh: ) my power goal is 205-210 whp. is this do-able?

    reik, if i were to go stage 2 cams, i should get p30's right? what about if i wanted to do the stage 1 cam set up, i wouldn't need to upgrade the bottom end because it's not as aggressive, correct? or do the stage 1 cams also still love compression? lol.

    thanks =]
  7. GSRCRXsi

    GSRCRXsi Super Moderator Moderator

    Media:
    607
    Albums:
    4
    check out my build in the auto-multimedia section. gsr build, s2s2 cams, STOCK valves. 215 whp. you dont need aftermarket valves.
  8. gsr x civic

    gsr x civic New Member

    i read a little bit on what you have. you forgot to mention you upped the pistons to itr pistons, a ported head, and much more. my gay "setup", if you can even call it that :p is basic bolt ons with a stupid vafc that i'm going to ditch pretty soon and rock a hondata ecu y0! haha. but by reading it, it looks like your shit is pretty built. i wish i had the money. i gotta start selling my stupid video game stuff. anyway. . .

    since the s2s2 cams and the s2s1 cams are the same price, should i just get the s2s2 and just make it work? stock bottom end with the stage 2 cams would work right?

    i don't know right now. i'm like half asleep and just got home from work, and it's like 215 or something.
  9. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator

    itll work, youll just be under utilizing those cams.
  10. gsr x civic

    gsr x civic New Member

    haha.
    are you sure they'll be good? i mean, it's ebay and all. it only costs 40 bucks labor for removing the bottom end, ripping it apart, removing my old pistons, putting in my new pistons, and putting it back together? i imagined it would be more.

    what's the compression for the nippon pistons?
  11. Exodus

    Exodus Junior Member

    What's your budget? What's your power goal?
  12. gsr x civic

    gsr x civic New Member

    whoa there. i had no intention of being a smart ass. i didn't mean to sound like one if i did. i just really don't know the rates of this and whatnot, so i thought it would only be 40 bucks. sorry bro.

    anyway, what good would oem replacement pistons do? are the nippon pistons forged? is there any advantage with this as opposed to getting aftermarket?

    exodus, right now, my budget will be about 1600. and my power goal is 220whp.
  13. gsr x civic

    gsr x civic New Member

    :D

    so i'm not going to need pistons for the s2s2 cams? i thought the cams liked high revving / compression? what about if i go stage 1 ? should i get the skunk2 cam gears as well? or should i go different brand?

    by "Check bearing clearance and replace as necessary" what do you mean by that?

    what kind of springs / retainers should i get? i know i can't just get any kind, and that there has to be a certain kind i get to match, or something.
  14. reikoshea

    reikoshea HS Troll...And Mod Moderator

    he means take your engine to an engine builder and have them do the work.
  15. gsr x civic

    gsr x civic New Member

    well i decided i'm going to go with a p&p as well.

    i think i should just save up more.

    and reikoshea, i will take it to a builder and just have them do it :)
  16. gsr x civic

    gsr x civic New Member

    cool. so i went to my local shop ..
    street port and polish = 350.
    s2s2 = 550-600
    s2s1 = 500-550 (or may be the same, dono, forgot what he said)

    and i didn't ask about springs and retainers. . . roughly 1200-1400 ghetto build w/ tune. . . and then i'm probably leaving my bottom end stock, because its like 1g+ to install the pistons and whatnot.

    so i may end up just doing a stage 1 build. that's still like 205 whp. :)

    is my skunk2 intake manifold not higher flowing enough? lol. but i'm still rockin a stock throttle body.
  17. GSRCRXsi

    GSRCRXsi Super Moderator Moderator

    Media:
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    Albums:
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    honestly i think your setup will only do about 180-190 without increased compression and a full port job and valve job (more flow and power is acheived from a good valve job then port work anyway).

    and theres a pretty big difference in size of the s1 and s2

    Stage 1
    IN 11.8mm/264
    EX 10.9mm/259

    Stage 2
    IN 12.3mm/275
    EX 11.8mm/270

    the stage 1's are really only slightly bigger then OEM type R cams. and if you are going to use them, id suggest going to at least ITR valvetrain.

    b16 valve spings will bind at 12.2mm lift, and ITR's at 13.1, and since GSR cams are only ever so slightly more aggressive in cam profile then the b16's i will assume that the spings arent too far off from the b16's as well (but i could be wrong, i only have b16 spring data in front of me). you want at least 1-1.5mm of breathing room before coil bind.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2006
  18. gsr x civic

    gsr x civic New Member

    hm.
    i can't find a machine shop that'll do that for me. 40 bucks a piston is dirt cheap, and i wish i knew of one that could do it for me for that cheap.

    btw, i already do have the s2 intake mani. i may have forgotten to mention it cuz i r teh suck.

    right now, here's my stupid plan.
    skunk2 stage 1 cams, skunk2 cam gears, port and polish, and now i'm still looking around and researching for the valvesprings / retainers, which i'm having shit luck with.

    if i do find a machine shop, then i'll go nippon pistons. but if not, that's my plan for the time being.
  19. gsr x civic

    gsr x civic New Member

    thank you.
    in all seriousness, thank you.

    i really think i should take a breath and just chill the fuck out. lol.
    i've been so anal on what i wanna do with my car, it's like i do so much "research" if you can call it that, and really learn nothing.

    god like whenever i get excited i want to get it and put it on right away. im so stubborn. can you smack me? lol.

    but yeah. thanks for your words of wisdom. i don't even know why i'm in such a hurry. i'm like, planning everything out. :(
  20. Exodus

    Exodus Junior Member

    Skunk2
    Cams - B16A-B18C 1.6/1.8L DOHC VTEC - STAGE 1 $698.92

    Valves -
    VALVE SET(STOCK SIZE B-SERIES DOHC VTEC) - HIGH COMP $373.20

    Valve Springs
    B16A-B18C1-5 1.6/1.8L DOHC VTEC VALVE SPRING SET $282.63
    B16A-B18C1-5 1.6/1.8L DOHC VTEC PRO-SERIES VALVE SPRING SET $374.06

    Retainers
    Not listed

    Throttle body
    60\66\68mm BILLET THROTTLE BODY D,B,H,F SERIES ENGINE $324.19

    Cam Gears
    1.6/1.7/1.8/2.3L DOHC CIVIC/DEL SOL/INTEGRA/PRELUDE CAM GEARS - SILVER\RED\BLUE $269.06

    ENDYN

    Cams
    Bump-Stix are available for all Honda B series VTEC engines $ 725.00

    Valve Springs
    Road Racing Springs (stock weight valves) running 9,800 peak RPM $ 255.00
    Pro Series Springs (oversize valves) running over 10,000 RPM $ 345.00

    Retainers
    Titanium Retainers (stock, +.030", +.060") $149.00

    Valves
    B VTEC Intake 33.0, 33.5 and 34.0 mm Exhaust 28.0 and 28.5 mm
    Price not Listed

    Pistons
    Roller Wave Pistons 81.0 mm 87.2 mm 5.433" 11.23-11.87:1 4.2 21.0 mm 273/81 gm 1.185"
    All pistons listed above are $525.00 per engine set. Gas Ports add $50.00 per set. Groove-Lock Spacers add $15.00
    Piston sets come complete with fitted wrist pins and pin-retaining clips. All pistons can be used with full-floating or press-fit connecting rods.
    4mm wall thickness piston pins available for extreme HP turbo applications at an additional cost of $50.00 per set.
    Piston Rings range from $145.00 to $155.00 per engine set.
    Skirt coatings add $20.00 per piston. Ceramic dome coatings add $25.00 per piston.




    Alright, just some rough numbers for parts, the Skunk2 brand is running you at $1623.81 for just the Cams, Valves, the cheaper Springs and gears, that's not including pistons, rings, a throttle body, labor, machine work etc...

    With ENDYN, on the cheaper end it's about... .. ... $1799, that's Cams, Valves (road race 9,800rpm), Springs, retainers, pistons\rings, and I think that's it.

    Let's do a decent build, mixing the two companies:

    Bump Stix - $725
    66mm TB - $324.19
    Gears - $269.06
    Skunk2 Valves high comp - 373.20
    Valve Spring - $255
    Rollwer Wave Pistons +access. $860
    Titanium Retainers - $149

    2955.45

    In just PARTS

    There's no port matching, valve jobs, assembly\labor\cleaning\honing\boring, other machining, or tuning included.

    That would however net your power over 200 to the wheels.

    So you are aware, turbo is cheaper than NA up to around where NA power maxes out. As the turbo engine still has more room to make more power, it will cost more in parts and tuning.

    But for the $3000 alone in just the parts that I chose to list and add together, you'd be better off running 10lbs turbocharged.

    High compression immediately costs you money, it means the engine needs to be torn apart and reassembled. You can add boost without taking the engine apart, you can't add compression like that.

    I would recommend you assemble a turbo kit good for 8-10psi, stock motor, upgraded ECU. You won't max out your factory ignition or fuel as long as your not making more than 130% power over stock (which is where the factory injectors tend not to continue doing what they need to, the ignition becomes inadequate after more power than that).

    While you're making 130% over stock, tuned out, saving gas, quieter car, BOV coolness involved, you're saving you money to rebuild the bottom end (add block posts, block girdle, high perf. oil pump, cometic head gasket, total seal rings, stock pistons\rods\crank, balanced rotating assembly, fluidampr pulley), and then work the head over a little (stock valve train, port matching, rc injectors (higher cc no more than 450), then up then boost to like 15psi. I am so forgetting stuff during the upgrade process, but this is all on the fly without mapping it all out.

    You're going to make more power turbocharged, period. All Honda engines have a low power ceiling NA. YES, so does K-Series (YES, I know Skunk2 is making 300WHP in their NA RSX, but the K-Series turbo power ceiling is ridiculous... just WAIT). The engines are too well built from the factory to show that much more improvement over stock when you build NA, and that's fresh out of the factory. You need a lot of machine work, way more displacement and compression and a bunch of tuning to make what low end, low build turbo Hondas make, and all for MORE money.

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