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D16A6 strengths and weaknesses

Discussion in 'Civic and CRX - EF' started by LOWLIFE, May 25, 2011.

  1. LOWLIFE

    LOWLIFE Local Diesel Fanatic

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    Looking to get into SCCA solo racing / track days with my 90 SI hatch. It is a nice ride for the street with cold a/c and a good ride with the Tein S tech springs and tokico illumina struts. But it could use some improvements here and there.

    My last hatch was a 91 civic DX with a B20B swapped in with a nice list of bolt ons and some spray. It was a blast and I miss the speed and power, I will eventually be building an engine for this one but for now I just wanna play with what it has.

    I am looking for some more power to start and was wondering where the largest gains on this engine can be found. I know everyone will say I, H, E... But I was to know what makes the largest improvement. Is a cam worth the money? What intake manifold works best but isnt 500 bones? what intake should I look into? I plan to relocate my battery to the back of the car to clearance there will be more open. there a style of header this engine likes over another? such as 4-1 or a GOOD 4-2-1 or something like a "tri y" ? I more less have my mind set on the Buddy Club Spec II as I heard a friends car with it and a B series and fell in love. I will be keeping my cat under the car but am not opposed to a higher flowing cat replacement. I still have my complete ZEX wet nitrous kit I will be putting on and I currently have it jetted for a 45 shot which I think is plenty safe. I have more jets to raise and lower power if wanted or needed, but i think a 45 with this lower powered engine will keep wheel spin from a corner to a straight to a minimum. Is there a specific cam I should look into for the N20?

    I am wanting to purchase the Hondata S300 for tuning reasons of the eventual engine swap and also once i got all the bolt ons on the current engine to tune it and maximize performance. For the N20 I plan to upgrade my fuel pump to a walbro 255 unit as to keep it properly fueled while spraying and keep from going lean.

    The engine is ALLEGEDLY all stock with the exception of a ported and polished head... I have no idea, I will bet on all stock. it looks 100% un molested. I believe it to be original to the car, the car has 213,xxx miles but runs PERFECT! And does not leak any oil, does not burn but a quart every 3k miles. I run Castrol Edge 10w30 in the goldish bottle (one that has some titanium properties or some jazz... it is their top of the line basically.) I change my oil right at or a little before 3k miles with a good quality wix oil filter and let it get a nice and long drain. I recently replaced the timing belt that looked original after it popped on the way to work while there I also did all the other preventative things such as tensioner and water pump. I have a new clutch that will need to go in first and will be ordering a lightweight fly wheel to help increase the rev speed and response.

    So what say yall?
     
  2. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    DIY turbo, free non-Hondata tuning via chip burner and one of the hacker-built tuning packages.

    You can have 200whp for under $1k if you do it all correctly and build/tune it yourself... all depends on your skill level though and how comfortable you are playing with your car.
     
  3. Briansol

    Briansol Admins Admin VIP

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    You should really pick a class before you buy anything. Most classes have strict restrictions on what you can do, and 1 simple mod that gains you 1 hp can easily throw you into the same class as 500 hp vipers.

    get a rule book.
     
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  4. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    :werd:
     
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  5. LOWLIFE

    LOWLIFE Local Diesel Fanatic

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    I really think hondata is a much beter program and worth the investment with all of the options it has and I can have it control multiple variables. and I wont be wasting money on chips with tunes I tried that failed and I can adjust while I drive. I know the E prom chips, burners, and programs are inexpensive but what the S300 offers I feel is worth the investment even tho it will be a much larger initial cost.

    as for comfort, I have no problem tearing the entire thing apart and it going back together as it should and not labeling or looking at books other than for torque references. I was a technician (A good one and made decent money with ZERO comebacks) for a number of years, managed many national shops ect.

    So far (with no rule book) what I have read on the SCCA sites basic bolt ons can keep me in a stock class, however having never raced with the organization before I qualify for the novice class for however long. anything more than that puts me in a modified stock class where most vehicles will have much more power than I will, and an engine swap will move me into the advanced class with very high horsepower vehicles, next class is the full race anything goes class. (that is my understanding anyhow).


    Honestly I am not really worried about what class I end up falling into as even tho I would LOVE to win I only plan to do this for fun and more or less try and beat my own times and make myself a better driver and have some fun on pavement when I'm not out in my truggy.

    I dont want to drop a fortune into this engine due to the high miles but I feel I will be just fine with N20 and possibly even a turbo due to the condition of the engine. I dont want to wear it out by any means and I know flogging the crap out of it on the track will be a lot harder than just driving back and forth to work but it also shouldnt throw a rod out the block.

    I still have more reading to do on the class rules so I can know exactly what to expect, but I am really wanting to know if there is anything other than the N20, I, H, E that I can do to improve this motor. A turbo was mentioned and I am ok with that so long as I can keep my A/C and preferably my full sized radiator, radiator I can deal with, A/C must stay. Its a daily and its hot in Texas! Thoughts on a cam? brands to look at ect. I would lke to hear it.
     
  6. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    S300 is essentially similar/same as "chips"; the Demon is the closes thing to the S300 but is supported by other programs. Moates Ostrich is also popular(emulator). Most people just go by what their tuner is familiar with, but the differences between them is not that big.

    A guy(known on forums as crxmotorsports) built a D15B2 within the rules that put down about 150whp. IIRC, the intake had to be "Honda" so he used individual throttle bodies from a Honda CBR929 or 954. Last I heard, he was also using a Bisimoto header which are probably the best "off the shelf" headers for D-series out there. Other things you may be able to do is get a reground cam; Bisimoto used to do this but Web(who grinds Bisimoto cams) and Delta still do.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2011
  7. LOWLIFE

    LOWLIFE Local Diesel Fanatic

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    So a cam is worth wile on these engines? I am familiar with Delta bu not the other. so you would recommend a re grind Vs a new one?
     
  8. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    See what the rules allow. Depending on the profile, regrinds are going to be cheaper. If you want an aggressive profile, you'd need to have the stock cam hard-welded which would end up costing the same or more than a new core.
     
  9. LOWLIFE

    LOWLIFE Local Diesel Fanatic

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    I don't think I was as clear as I thought. I do not care about the rules for what class I will be put into. I will be the only car on the track racing against myself for fun.

    Only thing I care about is making more power and where I need to focus my attention for the best results. I want the car fun for me. And an engine swap later will bump me into a much more agressive class anyhow.

    So what works best?
     
  10. LOWLIFE

    LOWLIFE Local Diesel Fanatic

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    Well I got a true CAI ordered and on the way so we will see what that does if anything when installed. I noticed the car peters out around 6k or a little after it is still pulling but not nearly as hard. Some research shows redline to be 6500 RPM and rev limited to 7200 RPM however I wanna say I hit the limiter at 6800? could be wrong or the factgory gauge could be a little off and I only did it once a while back so I dont really remember.

    I want to gain some bottom end but I think more power up top would be more useful and more fun to play with. These little engines seem to like it better in the higher RPMs anyhow so if I can keep the revs up something like a cam that makes more power up high wont be a big deal and could be far more useful than something that makes it all down low. So I will begin some looking into a cam and different options. A header I think will be next on my list or an intake manifold not sure which one yet.

    I guess I will sorta turn this into more of a product testing and feedback thread for what works for me and what doesnt seem to produce any real results.
     
  11. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    Check out some of the builds on Onecamonly and D-series.org

    Bisimoto headers seem to be the hot ticket for all-motor D-series, along with ITBs.
    The D16s already have a little more bottom end grunt compared to the B16; possibly overboring it a little will help; resleeving+reboring to something larger than 76mm would help too(in addition to deshrouding the valves which helps with flow).

    A ported head plus upgraded valvetrain+cam is needed to help aspiration in the higher RPMs.
     
  12. LOWLIFE

    LOWLIFE Local Diesel Fanatic

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    I looked into the bisimoto headers as the design seems to be a great one. But I am not willing to loose my A/C in the car, it has already hit 100*F here in DFW a couple of times. If there is one that does not cost me my A/C I will go with that, if not then a more traditional design or something like a "tri y" design will have to do.

    Good to know on the porting needed to improve top end. Supposedly it has a ported and polished head on it already... but I will presume it is stock until I pull it off and see for myself as we all know how some people are. Nothing indicates the head having been off much less any performance work done. The timing belt broke and looked to have every single 23x,xxx + miles the car has on it and I dont find it realistic one would spend money on head work and then re use the old belt.

    Also I will look into those sites, thank you. Tryin to be like a sponge to get all the info I can to make the best choices. I dont like doing things over.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2011
  13. LOWLIFE

    LOWLIFE Local Diesel Fanatic

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    I diagnosed a leaking head gasket last Friday so it has turned my progress into another direction resulting on a mini me swap when I pull the head to replace the head gasket. I started a thread HERE with some questions and some other information on the particular swap I will be doing (stock D16A6 block with D16Z6 head) and will be updating both as I go along as to hopefully help others that may have similar questions, or hopefully even just a good central location to find a wealth of knowledge of multiple people in one thread.
     
  14. LOWLIFE

    LOWLIFE Local Diesel Fanatic

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    I got my cold air on the car this Wed. and I think it did add a little more power through the power band most noticeable area being mid RPM to about 6,000-6,200 ish. It still falls of pretty hard after 6k area but I think that is more a cam issue. The intake did make where it falls off much more noticeable however. Bottom line the 50 or so bones I spent on this was worth the money IMOP.
     
  15. K2e2vin

    K2e2vin Senior Member

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    You can look into a 272 regrind from Delta. IIRC, they're like $60, but you'd want to tune the car afterwards.
     
  16. LOWLIFE

    LOWLIFE Local Diesel Fanatic

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    That is pretty inexpensive. I plan to spray on the car so something that would work well with that would be great. still got some looking around to do on the cam.

    As for tuning even before a cam I want to have it tuned to be able to get as much reliable performance out of it that I can. I did some simple street tuning to a friends B20 CRX with a header and exhaust everything else all stock and he went from being even with my 91 civic B20 with intake, TB, header, exhaust to killing me like I was standing still!

    TUNING IS YOUR FRIEND!!!! Even if just a stock motor.
     
  17. Korax

    Korax New Member

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    Stock SCCA solo in my area is pretty much as follows.

    -Stock everything for YOUR trim level, no DX to Si conversions (no intake, no springs, nothing) except-

    You can change your front sway bar to any non adjustable type.
    You can change rims for lighter weight but they must be stock diameter/width.
    Tires can be any size you can fit.
    I think you are allowed to have a cat back with muffler cause that really doesn't do anything to net you any power alone.
    You can align the car to any setting you want within stock characteristics. This means you can't add camber kits, etc.

    In my region there is also a tire index. As long as your tires are above a certain wear rating you get a different time calculation. Dunlop Z1 Star specs being at or above this number are my choice.
     
  18. LOWLIFE

    LOWLIFE Local Diesel Fanatic

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    Welp out of stock class for me the day i bought the car. lol

    Im not worried about classes I just wanna have a good time. A buddy of mine is gonna do it with me and he wants to do the races, we are pretty competitive so beating him will be a pleasure!
     
  19. Korax

    Korax New Member

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    That's how I feel. My TSX can run in H stock atm but i'll be kicked up to ST or something as soon as I put the wheels and tires on it. The b16 ed is gonna be in like D mod (never ran it yet). I won't be competitive in either class with either car but it's fun anyway.
     
  20. LOWLIFE

    LOWLIFE Local Diesel Fanatic

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    Well I guess it no longer matters. As of last night We got some rain for the first time in 6 months here in Texas and of course it flooded some of the roads. I hit a puddle about 6" deep that I couldnt see and having a cold air intake with no bypass and no splash guard in the wheel well it sucked just enough water to chunk what I think is #1 out the back of the block under the intake. Car still runs on the other 3 cylinders, but the block is ruined. the other block I have is a D16Z6 block (well I have a complete engine in pieces) but needs a rebuild as the thrust bearings are toast in it (got it used and apart already, noticed the crank walk once I got it home). I am thinking I may just drop a B16A2 down into it for the much higher HP numbers I think what 160HP in new stock condition.

    Still havent decided on what I will do. Wasnt to upset about it but this now means I will be driving my 3/4T Diesel that cast $120 to fill up till I do a swap or complete engine rebuild, which hurts my pocket book.
     
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