i said what i said....sarcasm doesnt really come out over the net.
GM out, Toyota IN as worlds largest automaker
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i said what i said....sarcasm doesnt really come out over the net.
trappd-in-859
New Member
Toyota's cars have always been reliable. I don't know why honda is consided the king of reliability when toyota has a better track record. Since 2001 honda has really slipped on reliability IMO. Now I don't know if this changed with the 06-07 model years, but they seemed to do really bad 2001-2005.
You learned woman speak. Good for you.
If you came from a town where the only thing holding it together is that assembly plant (like where I came from), I am sure losing that might having some impact on your standard of living.
And really looking at the broad picture. How reliable is reliable. My Chevys have always gotton us to 200k miles. My company has a whole fleet of Fords going well over 100k. At 200k it doesn't matter what manufacture you buy, its still probably going to be a $500 special at that point anyway, so whats the difference?
I am obviously a little more biased as I came from a town where most of the taxes and individual incomes came from one plant. The job I am at now is primarly supported by many manufacturing and engineering facilities. While some of the workers still screw caps on bottles (not joking they do), its still a job, its still income, and its better than welfare. I see how many thousands of workers are out there, and these plants are being constantly shut down because of foreign competition.
Black Widow g2
*princess*
ALL toyota's Tacomas are made at the NUMMI plant in Fremont, CA. Toyota Trucks: American Made. Don't know why they don't use that as leverage when trying to sell them. They even make Corollas there. Most of the other model trucks are made in the US. I just have first hand experience with NUMMI.
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Black Widow g2
*princess*
that's why i was excited to see that my car was fully assembled and manufactured in Japan.
American Honda's reliability has gone down. The quality of the true Japanese though... I'd argue with.
Thats great, buy em all from Japan, why don't we buy our food, medical and electronics there. That way we will have no manufacturing at all either.
If you want the best quality, buy from whoever makes it. If American manufacturers realize that they're shit-quality products aren't making the grade, they need to step it up. There's nothing unpatriotic about buying a foreign car if it's a better value. That's like saying eat at McDonalds instead of a quality sushi restaraunt, so that you don't hurt America's Economy. Bullshit.
GM is going out of business (as is ford and Chrysler) because they haven't made a decent car in 20 years (compared to their foreign competition)
15 years ago we had these options:
1991 NSX
1991 Supra
1991 M3
1991 chrysler..... ummm.... they didn't make shit... so how about a talon?
1991 mustang
1991 camaro
I would think most everyone here would rather take the NSX, Supra, or M3 over a camaro or mustang.
and the same can be said about the low-end "sports" cars of the same mfg's
1991 crx
1991 carolla?? i think the mr2 is too "high" for this class...
1991 318is
1991 LeBaron
1991 escort
1991 cavalier
I don't know about you but i'm taking the 318 or the crx.
Now, if Gm made a car that didn't suck compared to the competition today, they might actually sell some.
The GTO flopped for some unknown reason... it was the best car GM put out in many years, but no one wanted it. Those who could afford it either bought a vette instead, or were already sold from their 2 or 3 past foreign cars and stuck with bmw/lexus/benz, etc
the new mustang... same deal.
the dealer markup is stupid, especially on the model worth buying (up to 100k out the door cost). Sorry Henry, I'm buying a 996 instead if i have that kind of money.
They fucked themselves by not providing a car anyone gives a shit about.
Cars Forums and Message Boards
other than the mustang/vette/srt-4/truck boards, there's nothing active for late-model american cars.
Black Widow g2
*princess*
Why do you think all the American Motors are going toward the 'mini car' like the Fit/xB/xA etc? The HHR, the PT Cruiser even. They're trying to get in on what the trends are. Let's face it: Americans can build a Japanese car, but they cannot perfect the design of one. They can't rival them because they have no idea what they look for when building a car. I talk to people in Holland who'd drool over a Mustang. To be able to AFFORD to drive that car is amazing there. They have the idea that bigger isn't better. Hence, the SMART cars are selling like hotcakes over there.... so is the Cube. Ugly things.
Celerity
Well-Known Member
Dodge Omni killed in the market. The Aries / Reliant killed in the market. All of the K cars did. Then their look was dated, and the future of cars came apparent in 1991 with the sleek and dramatic lines of the Caprice, the Avenger, The Cirrus, the new New Yorker / Concorde and the Neon took over where the Omni left off. From Chevy the Cavalier became a Toyota design in 1994, and sold like hot cakes ...... Lemme take a moment here for a side note about rebadging cars:
When a company buys (licences) the designs from another company, such as the Toyota Matrix / Pontiac Vibe, all they are buying is the tooling and design rights of the car. The car comes to the buyer's factory in crates of parts or the tooling necessary to make the parts. So when you buy the Pontiac Vibe, you're putting american "laborers" to work to assemble the package. That's why there are quality differences between the brands. (Eagle Talons (nice styling, lower quality) Plymouth Lasers (Dramatically different, when you look close) and the Mitsubishi Eclipse comes to mind for quality / price differences)
Back on topic, the Ford EXP, the Pontiac Fiero, all Mustangs (Believe it or not) Camaros (Big, but nice cars) the Saturn SC2 and now the Cobalt, Neon SRT, Aveo and Focuses.
I mean, damn... That's not a bad list right there.
The important thing to remember when we do our comparisons is the area in which we live. This is something I've been saying around Forums since I moved to Colorado. American cars are made for American Roads. (Lots of us in the NE US experience a totally different sort of environment, including the roads). Ever taken a cross country trip in an MR2, a CRX and an RX7 ? I have. It was fuckin miserable. Ever drive a Cadillac in Tokyo ? Well, maybe not. But still you can see the point here.
These designs are made for another type of road. When they are brought here they are given different gearing and engines in an effort to adapt (The Toyota Celica comes to mind) but the design overall still doesn't fit into the area.
The Aveo was meant to compete with the ... Lets say.. Yaris. A Yaris is more expensive of a car, and has some higher quality components. But the Aveo is made for .. lets be serious... The American Poor. The Yaris isn't made for the Japanese Poor. Its made for the Japanese higher class (Because small doesn't mean shitty in Japan). The Japanese poor have cars that would make you hang yourself to drive for a week. And the Chinese / Koreans.. Man they drive some serious shit. Look up "AUV" or "Asian Utility Vehicles". These cars are so shitty they aren't allowed out of the Chinese countryside.
So basically, the Aveo is made to compete with a car that is designed for a totally different demographic. That's tough.
Now whatever GM and Ford and Dodge is doing now is fuckin mind-boggling. They have managed to pull together some of the best American designed cars and sell them in a market bracket that totally devastates the playing field. Don't believe me ? Test drive the V6 Mustang and then the Infinity G. The G has some neat shit in it (Nav computer... and... god.. Whatelse?) And then compare the price.
You'll love the Mustang, and you'll hate yourself for it.
Go ahead and DRIVE the Cobalt . Drive the Caliber. These cars are finally made and optioned right for the market. The US finally gets it.
As far as where they are made, Life sucks. Towns that are raised around a specific, one and only industry, suck. I grew up in Pennsylvania (outside of Johnstown, believe me I know) and I can tell you that it's the TOWN'S fault for failing after the closing of a factory, not the industry. IF the town, employees and unions don't keep up with the market and adapt, then they fail. Sorry.
The Unions and benefits for retirees is destroying the US Car manufacturer. It's destroying EVERY industry in the US. Other countries allow and encourage (Even counsel) their employees to invest, save, and make their own retirement plan. (I'll go on with socialist health in a second).
Here is how some countries do it, country by country:
England: England makes Rovers, Jaguars, Lotus, Aston Martin... And uh.. London cabs. Oh, and Rolls Royce / Bentleys. There is a major Ford plant there that makes 100% British designs and builds. (Cortinas, Escorts, Kas, what have you). These cars are significantly hand-made, inconsistent, and the English accept that fact openly and appreciate their cars as a matter of pride and art over function.
Germany: Germany is Socialist. They have "Cradle to Grave" healthcare provided by the government. The Government in turn has to invest in German companies and take capitalist controlling interest in some of those countries. AUDI (Auto Union whatever Industria) is an example of this. Horch (Defunct) Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi are the circles of Audi. BMW is Bavarian and also a result of that Government interest. GM got involved in the controlling interest of Opel before it got too late, but Opel was toyed with from the government during that period.
France's Citroen is very similar. But France is so indebt because their socialist programme is complete shit.
Italy follows the English model, with a slight twist. You see, they make no money. Italian cars are a financial joke, not only because the Italian Lyra is weaker than an AIDS patient after 4 nights of insomnia, but because the cars take so long to make that they barely make ends meet. That and they take the month of August off just to drink wine, grow hair on their backs and beat their wives.
Russia is completely controlled by the Government. Russian car companies are building cars to meet orders (Which is why 20 years pass before they upgrade the radio in a design) . Also the government forces all companies to make two products: One decided by the company (Say, cars) and the other decided by the government (Fish tanks and screen doors). IT's really wierd. But it allows for the car companies to provide the highest quality machines on the face of the earth. You think Japanese cars last for a long time ? A Russian would LAUGH at what we consider quality (Your common GAZ Volga makes the VW Phaeton look like a Hyundai). Russians were installing 8 rotor motors in cars before Mazda built the RX7. (8 rotors... yes, like 1000 cars used by the KGB)(The Urals, Zils, and the Chaika). They do cars like Sikorsky does helicopters. To fulfill orders only. Also, Pay is flat there (Communism still reigns the economy for pay and taxation)
Skipping over Korea, Taiwan, and China, we go to Japan. Japan builds and sells, domestically, like 1000 different cars for an island the size of Texas. They make cars for every niche there is. Their employees are employees for life, and retirement takes on a different meaning when people typically commit suicide when they are fired, or retire 10 days before they die of old age. These are Socialist people who's socialist "Cradle to Grave" program is covered by a general Government super-fund that takes money in (and doles out) to other industries such as screen doors and fish tank manufacturers.
Australia is a cradle-grave country as well, and whereas Ford setup in Britain, Chevy setup in Australia. The 70s Gas Crisis helped this along more than you can understand. During the 70s OPEC embargoed Europe and America. Japan has always had trouble getting fuel and their prices don't hide that. Australia and Russia were spared - because Russia hasn't bought a drop of oil from OPEC since 1967, and Australia simply didn't piss off the Shah. Because of that all of these sexy and heart-felt designs made it to everywhere but those countries like America who have been "winging it" in their business model since day one.
And America continues to stumble in the dark by changing the business models every 10 years. Of course we can't win, we don't know the rules !
Ultimately, America is picking up the pace, and not a day too soon. We've lost Hudson, Studebaker, Oldsmobile, Buick (It's gone soon, don't deny it) and countless other companies.
-> Steve
When a company buys (licences) the designs from another company, such as the Toyota Matrix / Pontiac Vibe, all they are buying is the tooling and design rights of the car. The car comes to the buyer's factory in crates of parts or the tooling necessary to make the parts. So when you buy the Pontiac Vibe, you're putting american "laborers" to work to assemble the package. That's why there are quality differences between the brands. (Eagle Talons (nice styling, lower quality) Plymouth Lasers (Dramatically different, when you look close) and the Mitsubishi Eclipse comes to mind for quality / price differences)
Back on topic, the Ford EXP, the Pontiac Fiero, all Mustangs (Believe it or not) Camaros (Big, but nice cars) the Saturn SC2 and now the Cobalt, Neon SRT, Aveo and Focuses.
I mean, damn... That's not a bad list right there.
The important thing to remember when we do our comparisons is the area in which we live. This is something I've been saying around Forums since I moved to Colorado. American cars are made for American Roads. (Lots of us in the NE US experience a totally different sort of environment, including the roads). Ever taken a cross country trip in an MR2, a CRX and an RX7 ? I have. It was fuckin miserable. Ever drive a Cadillac in Tokyo ? Well, maybe not. But still you can see the point here.
These designs are made for another type of road. When they are brought here they are given different gearing and engines in an effort to adapt (The Toyota Celica comes to mind) but the design overall still doesn't fit into the area.
The Aveo was meant to compete with the ... Lets say.. Yaris. A Yaris is more expensive of a car, and has some higher quality components. But the Aveo is made for .. lets be serious... The American Poor. The Yaris isn't made for the Japanese Poor. Its made for the Japanese higher class (Because small doesn't mean shitty in Japan). The Japanese poor have cars that would make you hang yourself to drive for a week. And the Chinese / Koreans.. Man they drive some serious shit. Look up "AUV" or "Asian Utility Vehicles". These cars are so shitty they aren't allowed out of the Chinese countryside.
So basically, the Aveo is made to compete with a car that is designed for a totally different demographic. That's tough.
Now whatever GM and Ford and Dodge is doing now is fuckin mind-boggling. They have managed to pull together some of the best American designed cars and sell them in a market bracket that totally devastates the playing field. Don't believe me ? Test drive the V6 Mustang and then the Infinity G. The G has some neat shit in it (Nav computer... and... god.. Whatelse?) And then compare the price.
You'll love the Mustang, and you'll hate yourself for it.
Go ahead and DRIVE the Cobalt . Drive the Caliber. These cars are finally made and optioned right for the market. The US finally gets it.
As far as where they are made, Life sucks. Towns that are raised around a specific, one and only industry, suck. I grew up in Pennsylvania (outside of Johnstown, believe me I know) and I can tell you that it's the TOWN'S fault for failing after the closing of a factory, not the industry. IF the town, employees and unions don't keep up with the market and adapt, then they fail. Sorry.
The Unions and benefits for retirees is destroying the US Car manufacturer. It's destroying EVERY industry in the US. Other countries allow and encourage (Even counsel) their employees to invest, save, and make their own retirement plan. (I'll go on with socialist health in a second).
Here is how some countries do it, country by country:
England: England makes Rovers, Jaguars, Lotus, Aston Martin... And uh.. London cabs. Oh, and Rolls Royce / Bentleys. There is a major Ford plant there that makes 100% British designs and builds. (Cortinas, Escorts, Kas, what have you). These cars are significantly hand-made, inconsistent, and the English accept that fact openly and appreciate their cars as a matter of pride and art over function.
Germany: Germany is Socialist. They have "Cradle to Grave" healthcare provided by the government. The Government in turn has to invest in German companies and take capitalist controlling interest in some of those countries. AUDI (Auto Union whatever Industria) is an example of this. Horch (Defunct) Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi are the circles of Audi. BMW is Bavarian and also a result of that Government interest. GM got involved in the controlling interest of Opel before it got too late, but Opel was toyed with from the government during that period.
France's Citroen is very similar. But France is so indebt because their socialist programme is complete shit.
Italy follows the English model, with a slight twist. You see, they make no money. Italian cars are a financial joke, not only because the Italian Lyra is weaker than an AIDS patient after 4 nights of insomnia, but because the cars take so long to make that they barely make ends meet. That and they take the month of August off just to drink wine, grow hair on their backs and beat their wives.
Russia is completely controlled by the Government. Russian car companies are building cars to meet orders (Which is why 20 years pass before they upgrade the radio in a design) . Also the government forces all companies to make two products: One decided by the company (Say, cars) and the other decided by the government (Fish tanks and screen doors). IT's really wierd. But it allows for the car companies to provide the highest quality machines on the face of the earth. You think Japanese cars last for a long time ? A Russian would LAUGH at what we consider quality (Your common GAZ Volga makes the VW Phaeton look like a Hyundai). Russians were installing 8 rotor motors in cars before Mazda built the RX7. (8 rotors... yes, like 1000 cars used by the KGB)(The Urals, Zils, and the Chaika). They do cars like Sikorsky does helicopters. To fulfill orders only. Also, Pay is flat there (Communism still reigns the economy for pay and taxation)
Skipping over Korea, Taiwan, and China, we go to Japan. Japan builds and sells, domestically, like 1000 different cars for an island the size of Texas. They make cars for every niche there is. Their employees are employees for life, and retirement takes on a different meaning when people typically commit suicide when they are fired, or retire 10 days before they die of old age. These are Socialist people who's socialist "Cradle to Grave" program is covered by a general Government super-fund that takes money in (and doles out) to other industries such as screen doors and fish tank manufacturers.
Australia is a cradle-grave country as well, and whereas Ford setup in Britain, Chevy setup in Australia. The 70s Gas Crisis helped this along more than you can understand. During the 70s OPEC embargoed Europe and America. Japan has always had trouble getting fuel and their prices don't hide that. Australia and Russia were spared - because Russia hasn't bought a drop of oil from OPEC since 1967, and Australia simply didn't piss off the Shah. Because of that all of these sexy and heart-felt designs made it to everywhere but those countries like America who have been "winging it" in their business model since day one.
And America continues to stumble in the dark by changing the business models every 10 years. Of course we can't win, we don't know the rules !
Ultimately, America is picking up the pace, and not a day too soon. We've lost Hudson, Studebaker, Oldsmobile, Buick (It's gone soon, don't deny it) and countless other companies.
-> Steve
That was a much better answer than there are only two foreign car companies in the world, no other companies exist.
I go through a car on average of 2-3 years. I have owned 3 Hondas, 2 Chevys, 2 Nissans, 2 Ford's and 1 Hyundai.
This being a Honda forum, everybody is gung ho on Honda's and foreign cars. Its like talking Chevy to a Ford guy. Reliability statistics are facts. Styling is just an opinion.
Honda's and Yota's almost always meet the top 10 best cars on most lists. What the lists fail to say, and basically what I have said in some other threads are: how much better are they? If the Chevy gets you to 200k and the Honda gets you to 300k does it really matter at that point. Most people don't own thier cars longer than a few years. If you were to buy a car new you would have to drive it for well over 100k before you start seeing any major problems. And even then what exactly fails? If its just an alternator or a starter, who cares. So in my opinion, it still comes down to cost and looks. If you buy a Honda that gets 3 more mpg but you paid $2000 more for it, was it really worth it? And then there is whoes country does it support.
I have not owned a single car that has not had problems with it. The Nissans have been the worst. I bought a Chevy because: It is American made, it was the best price for what I wanted, it gave me more options that the competition and was faster. In my opinion the styling is great, although the interior dash is hard plastic and feels a little cheap, but thats about all. My last Chevy was good considering it was my first car and I beat the living snot out of it, I got rid of it at 145k and bought my first Civic. I test drove a Ford Fusion, the most confortable car out off all the ones I drove, but it was made in Mexico so I turned it down.
I go through a car on average of 2-3 years. I have owned 3 Hondas, 2 Chevys, 2 Nissans, 2 Ford's and 1 Hyundai.
This being a Honda forum, everybody is gung ho on Honda's and foreign cars. Its like talking Chevy to a Ford guy. Reliability statistics are facts. Styling is just an opinion.
Honda's and Yota's almost always meet the top 10 best cars on most lists. What the lists fail to say, and basically what I have said in some other threads are: how much better are they? If the Chevy gets you to 200k and the Honda gets you to 300k does it really matter at that point. Most people don't own thier cars longer than a few years. If you were to buy a car new you would have to drive it for well over 100k before you start seeing any major problems. And even then what exactly fails? If its just an alternator or a starter, who cares. So in my opinion, it still comes down to cost and looks. If you buy a Honda that gets 3 more mpg but you paid $2000 more for it, was it really worth it? And then there is whoes country does it support.
I have not owned a single car that has not had problems with it. The Nissans have been the worst. I bought a Chevy because: It is American made, it was the best price for what I wanted, it gave me more options that the competition and was faster. In my opinion the styling is great, although the interior dash is hard plastic and feels a little cheap, but thats about all. My last Chevy was good considering it was my first car and I beat the living snot out of it, I got rid of it at 145k and bought my first Civic. I test drove a Ford Fusion, the most confortable car out off all the ones I drove, but it was made in Mexico so I turned it down.
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agreed.
i don't have a pension and i'm a senior-level employee. my dad has a small pension.. i think its like 10% of his salary for 5 years after retirement, and his company stopped giving it to new employees in 1990 or so...
i don't care if you've been there 30 years. the company owes you nothing after you stop working for them.
its up to YOU to prepare for your future.
i personally have never owned anything but a japanese built car
well, my 92 civic was built in canada.
both mirages were built in japan. the old "dodge" colt even had a made in japan plaque on the firewall.
the next car i buy will most likely be japanese built as well. mazdaspeed 6.
well, my 92 civic was built in canada.
both mirages were built in japan. the old "dodge" colt even had a made in japan plaque on the firewall.
the next car i buy will most likely be japanese built as well. mazdaspeed 6.
+1 401k and ira's ftw.
Black Widow g2
*princess*
I still have my 1990 Integra LS and it's pushing 300k Can't argue with a foreign car if you can hydrolock it, blow a timing belt or three, and still have a sound motor.
Can't argue with a foreign car if you can hydrolock it, blow a timing belt or three, and still have a sound motor.
