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Help, Can't set ignition timing anymore advanced -valve timing is good and normal.

Discussion in 'Civic and del Sol - EG and EK' started by kenoverby, Dec 8, 2010.

  1. kenoverby

    kenoverby Junior Member

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    My valve timing is correct but my ignition timing needs more advancment but my distributor is at it's limit. It needs about a quarter inch more advancment. Do I have to replace somthing? Distributor, o2 sensor, ecu? I tryed to set the ignition timing correctly with service check jumped. Some times I can set the timing correctly when cold but ones engine is warm to hot it goes to retard. The vacume check says late ignition timing.
    About my car :
    1993 Civic DX 3Door Automatic Stock
    Engine = D15B7 witch came with a PM8 8 valve Civic CX head. -Engine rebuilt with new belts, hoses, pumps.
    Head = Rebuilt and Machined PM3-6 16valve witch I swaped recently since I needed a 16 valve head
    Vehicle Condition = Rebuild the engine, installed the machined 16valve head, new oem injectors, good fuel pump, good main relay, code readable ECU, new oem battery.
    Replaced the rotor and cap of the distributor.
    Only things I have not replaced on the engine are the Distributor, Igniter, Coil, and spark plug wires. I recently replaced the midus muffler since it was rusted out and causing back pressure. Possibly over heating my catalytic converter and o2 sensor.
    My conclusion =
    1. May take it to local honda dealer for $100 to $200 to find solution.
    2. Buy new distributor with spark plug wires.
    3. Buy new o2 sensor.
    4. Buy correct head or camshaft for my year and model. Currently have a PM3-6 head but engine comes with a PM9
    Other thoughts =
    1. Valve timing with crank shaft are lined up for TDC along with distributor marks are at TDC, and rotor is pointing to No.1 spark plug wire.
    2. Have tryed setting valve timing retarded with good results for Ignition timing but pour engine performance and the valve timing looked off a tooth.
    3. Have checked and rechecked.
    4. Currently getting pour gas mileage.
    So what do you master techs think? hehe. -if you guys know this one I can answer several post that people have with the same problem.
    I need my car to get to college so any quick help is apreciated.

    _-=UPDATED_-=I may move this problem to new post called "Help... I can't set idle and need more rpm" since I need proper idle to set timing first hehe [​IMG]
    I learned to check idle first befor finding problems with ignition timing, Yup that is the result of this post. I think I am almost done with solution to this rough idle and acceleration problem.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2010
  2. Briansol

    Briansol Admins Admin VIP

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    what ecu are you using?
     
  3. kenoverby

    kenoverby Junior Member

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    P06 - stock automatic, came with vehicle, original ecu from 1993 when car was made.
    PM3-6 head witch supposidly will work but orignal head is the PM9 -After I changed the head is when I noticed the biggest change in the ignition timing but the distributor and camshaft line up at TDC as well as the Camshaft and crankshaft line up at TDC sooo I am stumped.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  4. CAFROG

    CAFROG Honda Minion VIP

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    Jumping the service harness when you do the timing? Of not.....ECU just pts it right back to where it was before but the placement of the dizzy makes you think you advanced it.
     
  5. kenoverby

    kenoverby Junior Member

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    Someone this morning told me to jump the harness so I jumped it this morning and the same results. Everything is at TDC, even the distributor marks that connect to the camshaft. Soo yea this is as frustrating as an engine can get. The sensors control the timing from what I read so I could only think my Camshaft position sensor or O2 sensor.
     
  6. kenoverby

    kenoverby Junior Member

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    Wait, are you saying somthing about the ignition timing adjustment that isn't even told about in the repair manual? Like I was thinking maybe setting it to retard as far as possible and then jumping service check terminal.. What are your thoughts on that? I havn't tryed that yet hehe.
     
  7. CAFROG

    CAFROG Honda Minion VIP

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    I think you could loosen the dizzy and move it back to a more retarded position when the car is off but I have never done it myself. But I do know you must jump the service plug (under the dash/glove box) to actually change the timing and fool the computer into keeping it where you want. Its the smaller of the two stray plugs you'll find right next to each other. Only Honda manual you should have is from the Helm company. Everything else pales in comparison.


    This is the instructions (per Helm's Manual for a OBD1 GSR)
    Make sure car is up to running temp
    Use a piece of wire to connect the circuit (CEL should come on)
    Use timing gun on #1 cylinder, loosen dizzy bolts and advance the dizzy to the desired timing (14-18 degrees)
    Tighten dizzy bolts and remove the wire from the service plug
    Re-check timing.

    I would then turn car off and restart /check timing once more
     
  8. kenoverby

    kenoverby Junior Member

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    Those are the same basics that I have been working with. So yeah I would try the tricking the computer since it is getting a pulse from the position sensor. I just still think there is something that needs to be replaced. I feel like I have to spend money.
     
  9. CAFROG

    CAFROG Honda Minion VIP

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    So you have been jumping the service connector???

    And you are sure the mechanical timing is right on? (cam gear and crank) But if it was off....it would run/rev like crap
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  10. kenoverby

    kenoverby Junior Member

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    Mechanical timing is all set for TDC and I follow the directions from factory repair manual to set timing using service check connector. I have tryed retarding the valve timing to achive ignition timing witch has worked for the ignition timing but poor engine performance and the camshaft looks like it is off a tooth at crankshaft TDC. My mom even tells me to take it to honda hehe. I think they would either find a bad distributor, ecu, or O2 sensor. But still it's ignition timing. It should be as simple as changing a tire.
     
  11. B16

    B16 Super Moderator VIP

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    You sure your crank was at TDC and you weren't lining up on the Timing mark when setting the mechanical timing? I've seen people do that before...
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. kenoverby

    kenoverby Junior Member

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    Im sure. I even used a TDC gauge on No.1 cylinder just in case and verified that the rotor is pointing to Spark plug 1 on TDC. Everything is lined up.
     
  13. CAFROG

    CAFROG Honda Minion VIP

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    Can you clairfy these parts of your post. They seem to contradict one another.

    You said you used a tool in the #1 cylinder. What I have done is use a long screw driver in the spark plug hole for #1. Get it to reach its highest point (TDC for the bottom end) and then look where the cam gear is. Stock cam gear I am guessing so there should be an "up" symbol.
    If its not in synch, take the timing belt off and re-install at the right spot.
     
  14. kenoverby

    kenoverby Junior Member

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    The camshaft gear is positioned with the up mark pointing up. I used a TDC gauge that screws into cyclinder one spark plug hole to confirm TDC of crankshaft. It's basicly the same as a long screwdriver. When I took the distributor off I lined it up with the marks for TDC and then it inserted right into the camshaft perfectly when camshaft is at TDC. So everything is lined up. Im just getting late spark so far.
     
  15. CAFROG

    CAFROG Honda Minion VIP

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    Th Dizzy only connects to the cam in one way (some say you can accidentally reverse it 180 degrees out but I haven't been able to before) It should not be used when checking mechaincal synchronization. Only the crank and cam gear should be looked at. But if you checked with the tool in #1 and the cam gear is in the right spot (for sure) then your mechanical timing is on.

    Have you tried a digital timing gun? Find the exact degrees you are at right now.

    Is it possible you have a problem with timing b/c you decked the head and such? I am not sure and that stuff is a little out of my expertise.
     
  16. kenoverby

    kenoverby Junior Member

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    Cause is a bad O2 sensor. I asked my smog class teacher and he said that the O2 sensor would read lean if bad and will through off idle so much that it can stall the engine. It also effects timing. I then told him about how my engine had a head gasket failure witch contaminated the o2 sensor with all the moisture and a bad muffler that over heated the exhaust system possible damaging my cat and o2 sensor. He said yes that will damage the o2 sensor. So I am buying tonight a denso oem o2 sensor for $54 shipped from denso's website and I will report back with a correction to my timing update.
     
  17. CAFROG

    CAFROG Honda Minion VIP

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    Any news??? Don't mean to jinx you but I think your smog class teacher is smoking crack! It will affect fuel/air ratios b/c it doesn't report the right info back to the ECU but......I cannot see it affecting your timing. Get a timing gun on that thing! Preferable a digital one. Tell your smog teacher that! They must have one at your school. I can see your O2 being a little contaminated but timing.......no.
     
  18. kenoverby

    kenoverby Junior Member

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    I found I can set my timing when manualy applying proper RPM. So basicly I can't set idle and I have the adjustment screw all the way out to it's max and still can't get enough idle. I can go on and on about how I replaced everything on the engine so it could be a number of things but seriously I think its the fast idle control valve. The idle air control valve that is coolant temp activated. I think since I was running the engine without water for short distances for about a week it cause it to fail "it's as old as the car too". I had to replace my electronic idle air control valve the day I replaced the head gasket to fix the cooling system problems since it was humming "failing solenoid" and well I did not replace the fast idle controle valve since it is located on the bottom of the throttle body secured with phillips screws and coolant hoses. I will try to R&R it tommarow. So anyways. I have long lagg in acceleration and it is dangerous with on comming traffic since it has pour acceleration. Any ideas you guys want to tell me about setting idle? Does it sound like its getting too much air during acceleration? It's funny, the car takes less then a second to start "very fast start" when cold, and when it is warm to hot I have to give it some throttle to start.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2010
  19. CAFROG

    CAFROG Honda Minion VIP

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    FITV would be idle only......not anything when you are accelerating into traffic. FITV controls idle when motor is cold and just started IACV takes over at running temps. They both run off coolant lines to regulate them. But if you want to check some stuff.....get car to running temp, unplug IACV electrical and the car will idle lower......if it doesn't then the IACV wiring or actual solenoid is bad (per Helm's Manual for B18C1 but applies to your motor too). To check FITV......car needs to be at running temp and take the intake air filter pipe off to expose the throttle body. On the inside of the TB there will be a hole on the bottom (outside of the butterfly) with car running (at correct temp) put your finger over the hole and plug it. If it has suction, then its not sealed correctly or has a leak. If there is no suction....you are good to go.

    To adjust idle (per Helm's) you get car to running temp (thermo opens) and unplug IACV again.....idle lowers but now is when you adjust the idle screw. Your car may be different than a B series VTEC but I would say it should be around 500-550rpm (with IACV unplugged). Once its set.....shut car off....plug IACV back in and unplug the "Back-Up" fuse for 15-20 seconds. Then re-check idle at runinng temp.

    But I Do Not think this stuff is your problem. Please please please check the timing on a gun and jump the service plug to get it where you want. You have checked and double checked your mechanical timing so lets do this next.
     
  20. kenoverby

    kenoverby Junior Member

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    I may move this problem to new post called "Help... I can't set idle and need more rpm" hehe :rimshot:

    I set my timing only when I manual held the throttle. Anything below 50rpm from base idle and I can't set timing. That is why I could set timing when engine was totaly cold and not when it loses idle when warm to hot. Current idle is around 320rpm with or without EACV connected and thats with idle air screw all the way out. Idle is supposed to be set to 420rpm plus or minus 50rpm. Witch will be 700rpm plus or minus 50rpm when EACV is functional and I only have 320rpm right now for idle. So yea I totaly can't set idle. I will perform a inspection of the Fast Idle Valve tommarow morning and replace it with a 40K mile valve if deemned un-acceptable. Below are the proceedures in print.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2010
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