What is TDC on a PM3 head?

[danielvaughn123]

I have a PM3 head that came off a D15B2 head and I put it on a D15B7 motor.
I can't seem to get the car to run now. Can anyone help me please? I think it may just be my timing. I don't know where TDC is on the cam or crank. Can anyone post some pictures or something for me please. I need to get my car running soon.

 

[danielvaughn123]

I mean I have a PM3 head that came off a D15B2 motor. My bad about the typo.

 

[K2e2vin]

There's 3 marks on the cam gear; a 3 and 9 o'clock along with a 7 o'clock opposite the "Up" mark. with the bottom end at TDC, Align the cam so the two arrows at the 3 and 9 align with the arrows on the rear timing cover; and the "Up" mark is on top.

If you have the crank pulley off, there's a mark on the cam pulley and just align it with the arrow on the oil pump. If it's still on there, use the timing "sight" on the belt cover(you align it like a gun sight looking down) and there's a single mark along with a set of 3 marks on the crank pulley. Align it with the single mark.

You might want to swap the B7 cam into the B2 head btw.

 

[danielvaughn123]

Thanks but I don't have a timing cover for the motor or head. I guess I should of mentioned that before. I need a way to find TDC without a timing cover. If it's not my timing then I don't know what is wrong. I just put this motor in my car again. It originally had a PO8 head from a 1.6. That head locked up so i pulled the motor (D15B7) and put another one in (D15B2). It had bad pistons and/or rings so I took the head off it and put it on the D15B7. Now I can't seem to get it to run. All it does is turn. It was wanting to back fire through the 'throttle body'. So I turned it 180 degrees and it did the same thing. The head is a PM3. I don't have a way of changing cams either. It's stock from the D15B2 motor.

 

[danielvaughn123]

I also have the DPFI that was originally hooked up to the head when I pulled it off the D15B2 motor. My ECU/ECM was messed with when I got the car. What I mean is that the D15B7 motor had a PO8 head on it with a different intake. The intake had 4 injectors. I think it was a MPFI but don't quote me on it. Who ever put that head and intake on also ran there own wires to the ECU/ECM. I don't know if they switched pins on the plugs either. I've found some pinout diagrams but I don't know if they're the right ones for my car. I need some major help with this. If I don't get this car running soon, and I mean soon, I won't have a place live because I may not have a job. I deliver so I work for tips.

 

[Fernpatch]

ok... let me see if I can help you. If I am understanding this correctly you have a d15b7 block with a d15b2 head. You need to pull the harmonic balancer off the crank and align the mark on the crank pulley that runs the timing belt with the arrow on the oil pump. for the cam you want to have the up arrow pointing up with the two hash marks at 3 and 9 o'clock even with the valve cover gasket mating surface on the head.

are you using the dpfi intake from the b2 head or the mpfi manifold from the 1.6 head? If the car had been running with the mpfi manifold before the old head took a dump than you should use that manifold and the distributor from the 1.6 head as well.

I hope this helps. let me know if you need more information. Pics of the problems are always a plus.

 

[danielvaughn123]

Yeah that was helpful to know. I just don't want to have to pull the harmonic balancer. I don't have the tool or the money to rent one. Can't I use the marks on the harmonic balancer somehow? I don't have the timing cover on the motor but from the looks of it, the mark on the harmonic balancer should be about one tooth of a turn towards the cab from the tentioner bolt. If so then I had it timed at one point. Maybe not now. I'm using the DPFI. Why would I have to use the distributor from the other head with the MPFI? What's the difference in distributors? I guess what I'm asking is if it's a D15B2 head wtih a D15B2 distributor, shouldn't it be firing at the correct time with the cam? The distributor doesn't turn unless the cam does. What does it matter about the intake?

I know that there is a way to load pics but what about audio?

 

[CAFROG]

The crank pulley bolt has a key....right? The key way on the crank should be a "noon" for the bottom end to be TDC.

You can always use a long skinny screw driver if you take out spark plug #1 and place the screwdriver gently in the cylinder. Turn the crank and the highest point that the screwdriver will go.....thats TDC for the bottom end

And do what others have said for the cam gear placement.

 

[danielvaughn123]

I don't know if it has a key. I believe I've tried every position the crank and cam can be placed at without ruining anything. After tightening the belt I turned the crank 2 full rotations to make sure it would not catch anything before I tried starting the car. I believe now that it wasn't my timing unless somehow I never got them both TDC. Does any one have a suggestion to what else it may be?

 

[danielvaughn123]

This is what has happened...

I bought the car (91 civic hatchback with a D15B7 motor and a 1.6L head[PO8]. MPFI). Didn't know everything that was wrong with it. Drove it 3000 miles in a month maybe one and a half. I deliver for Domino's, that's the reason for so many miles plus the drive to work... Anyways... The car leaked a lot of oil. I've had to fill it up constantly. The cylinder head eventually locked up. I had it towed home. I bought a motor and transmission. The guy I got it from said it was an SI motor and a CRX transmission. It was actually a D15B2 motor with a 1.5L head (Casting # PM3) and a DPFI intake. I have no clue about the transmission. I dropped the D15B2 into my car as it was. Tried changing some wires from the ECU/ECM and run them to where I could swear they were supposed to go. I got it to run... .... It made a really bad noise from within the middle of the motor. I pulled the D15B2 out of the car and took off the head. Found out it had bad pistons, rods, and/or rings. I was able to move the number 2 or 3 piston (can't remember which) about half an inch before it would stop when it was on the ignition stroke. I kept the head and put it on my D15B7 motor with the DPFI intake. Wired it up. Tried setting the timing. Tried starting the car. It didn't run. I switched the intake to the MPFI. I did NOT switch distributors. Ran the injector wires. Tried starting the car. Didn't run. I switched it back to the DPFI intake. Redid the wires again. Tried timing. Tried wiring, timing, wiring, timing, timing, and more timing then more wiring. Finally said F this and posted what I thought may be my problem. After all the work I've done trying to time the thing, I don't think it's the problem. It sits now with the D15B7 motor, the head off the D15B2 (Casting # PM3), the DPFI intake (originally hooked up to the head), the DPFI distributor, the wiring harness from the D15B2 (uncut). All wires should be hooked up properly.

I still have the distributor from the PO8 head (1.6L), the intake that was hooked up to it, and the wiring harness from the D15B7 (cut and made for what was on the car when I bought it.

Does anyone have an idea to what I can do?

 

[CAFROG]

Just try the screwdriver......it wont take but a minute or two. Then reference your bottom end results to the top end (cam gear) results.

 

[Fernpatch]

What ecu are you using? you need a pm5 for the dpfi to work. A pm6 for mpfi. You say youhad it running with the dpfi setup, how long did it run before it popped?

 

[danielvaughn123]

I believe the ecu is the original for the 91 civic. I'm not sure if it was switched out before i got the car. It has 3 plugs. A, B, and C. When I had the D15B2 motor in the car, it had the PM3 head with the DPFI intake. The D15B2 wiring harness. The D15B2 is the motor that had bad pistons, rings, and/or rods. For a while it would run as long as I kept giving it gas. If I didn't then it would start, run for about 2 seconds then die. It seemed like it ran better after I unpluged 1 of the 2 injectors. It had no power to be driven although I did try. Got it up to 35mph.

 

[danielvaughn123]

Somehow I got it to idle on its own with everything hooked up like my last message. I think it was because the motor warmed up. idk

 

[danielvaughn123]

I would try the screwdriver thingy but I don't have one long enough to touch the piston.

 

[danielvaughn123]

I'm finally able to post pics. I'll be posting some about my problem soon. It's too dark now to take pics.

 

[danielvaughn123]

I've got the car to start and run. now it's making a whooping like sound. (That's the best I can describe it anyways.) I had the plug wires wrong on the distibutor. They were in order just one spot off like it was turned 90 degrees advanced. Now my problem is that when I rev the motor it wants to act like it's cuting out sort of. Like a whooping sound. I guess like when it reaches it's highest rpm. Not sure how else to explain it. I have the D15B7 block with the D15B2 head (PM3) and the DPFI intake. The distributor is turned for an 'advance' I guess you could say. If I turn it the other way it wants to bog down and almost die. Could my wiring mess it up like that if I had the crank angle and cylinder position sensors hooked up backwards? My check ingine light won't turn off either? My ecu is a PM6. It's the same ecu when I had the D15B7 with the PO8 head and MPFI intake. Who ever put that stuff in before I got the car spliced the wires for the injectors, crank angle sensor, and the cylinder position sensor. They also spliced wires on the motor wiring harness. I'm using the wiring harness from my D15B2 now. They looked the same except the one has been modified and the other hasn't been. I also don't have all the proper stuff for the vacuum lines to hook up. I hope with all that I've said, someone may be able to help me.

 

[danielvaughn123]

Compared to the vacuum diagram, I don't have the charcoal canister and purge cut-off solenoid valve. I have a small piece of hose just hanging where the charcoal canister is supposed to hook up to on the intake. My MAP senser only has one spot where a vacuum runs from it and it's hook up where it should be on the intake. Where the purge cut-off solenoid line is supposed to go I can't find or it's not like the picture (where it hooks up to the intake) and may be located elsewhere on the intake. Next to where that is supposed to hook up to the intake isn't like the picture either. I don't know the names of the parts. I have two spots on the intake capped and the MAP sensor hooked up. I also have a small piece of hose from the intake that's not pluged and is not hooked up to the charcoal canister (I don't have one anyways). The charcoal canister and purge cut-off solenoid were never onn the car when I got it and it had the D15B7 with PO8 head and MPFI intake. I hope this made since. Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

[Fernpatch]

You need to undo the wiring changes at the ecu connectors and use a pm5 ecu. that pm6 that you have is looking for more injectors and sensors than the dpfi setup has to offer. It would also be a good idea to use the dpfi distributor. It has a rectanguler plug and a 2 wire small plug that should plug and play with the d15b2 wiring harness. The MPFI distributor has a large round plug and a small round plug and does not plug and play with the d15b2 harness.

 

[danielvaughn123]

I have the D15B2 distributor hooked up. All wire colors matched on plugs. according to oreillyauto.com my ecu is the correct one for my car. The intake is supposed to be the one for that ecu too. 2 injectors not 4. The harness plugs right up.