Need General Info on building a H22A motor

[Pickles954]

Hello to all, I had an 02 WRX wagon that had an unfortunate death a couple weeks ago. I plan to later( meaning 2-3yrs later) get back into the fleet of Subaru, but for now I am planning on purchasing a 99-01 Prelude from a friend and the wheels in my head are starting to spin. I don't want to Turbo because I've been down that road and the only turbo car I would get behind the wheel of is an STI. So, I've been thinking of doing an all motor buildup w/laughing gas and wanted to know how should I go about that plan. I plan to later in the year....hopefully before 07, buy a new motor ( old motor has 113,000 miles on it), slip the new one in and take the old one and build the crap out of it. I really am interested in either all motor, or built motor with spray. If I can turn out good numbers on just the motor without spray then cool, if I can get better numbers with spray included then once again...cool! My first project was when I was 20 was a civic so I am somewhat knowledgable in the field of Honda, but my passion fall alot towards Subaru and after 2yrs of being force fed Subaru knowledge and hands on experience I felt after the death of my second Subie I would take a break for a couple years and see if I still have it in the honda side of the house. Please, any info, links to websites, knowledgable info, anything would be very helpful for me to tackle this new project that is about to be given to me. Thanks Guy! Cheers

 

[get_nick]

first of all, why are you so set on nitrous? you can't do an all motor build then add the nitrous. you would have to build a motor for just the nitrous, but then when you weren't spraying, it wouldn't be that quick.

second, NA h22's are hard and expensive to build. you could get more reliability for a hell of a lot cheaper by adding a turbo or supercharger. for cost efficiency and ease of build, stay away from all motor. especially with the h22. it's extremely expensive.

third, why buy a new motor just to build your old one? 113,000 miles isn't that much for a honda. if you want to do a full build, just buy a long block and start building that. it would be the best for you. leave the good motor in there.

 

[MikeBergy]

If you are gonna run nitrous:

Engine Management is your best friend. Period, End of Story. Crome, Hondata, Neptune, Electromotive, whatever as long as you have some way of tuning it on a dyno.

If you want to run nitrous without a care in the world, a set of sleeves should be in your build, along with a good set of forged pistons and rods. Like forced induction, nitrous will be allowing for a LOT more air in the system, as it it not only an oxidizer itself, but also cools the intake charge alot. So build the engine as if you were building it for turbo. It will be safe, and given a good tune, it will be reliable on or off the juice.

I don't have any specific website links or anything specific to hand you, but if you bulletproof the bottom end, you should have no problems running nitrous on a daily basis.

Quoted post[/post]]
first of all, why are you so set on nitrous? you can't do an all motor build then add the nitrous. you would have to build a motor for just the nitrous, but then when you weren't spraying, it wouldn't be that quick.

Wrong. Seen plenty of quick all motor builds with nitrous, quick without, and quicker with.

second, NA h22's are hard and expensive to build. you could get more reliability for a hell of a lot cheaper by adding a turbo or supercharger. for cost efficiency and ease of build, stay away from all motor. especially with the h22. it's extremely expensive.

third, why buy a new motor just to build your old one? 113,000 miles isn't that much for a honda. if you want to do a full build, just buy a long block and start building that. it would be the best for you. leave the good motor in there.

Not hard to build from what I've seen, at least doing it the right way and sleeving it, but definitely more expensive.

I agree that you should leave the motor in there as is, and build a separate longblock. 113,000 miles is young, not even three timing belts old yet.

 

[Pickles954]

Quoted post[/post]]
If you are gonna run nitrous:

Engine Management is your best friend. Period, End of Story. Crome, Hondata, Neptune, Electromotive, whatever as long as you have some way of tuning it on a dyno.

If you want to run nitrous without a care in the world, a set of sleeves should be in your build, along with a good set of forged pistons and rods. Like forced induction, nitrous will be allowing for a LOT more air in the system, as it it not only an oxidizer itself, but also cools the intake charge alot. So build the engine as if you were building it for turbo. It will be safe, and given a good tune, it will be reliable on or off the juice.

I don't have any specific website links or anything specific to hand you, but if you bulletproof the bottom end, you should have no problems running nitrous on a daily basis.

I understand EM, From the land of Subaru that is KEY factor when Modding Subies. I was also thinking of just doing all motor. You seem to be more understanding and not quick to making my options and ideas sound like crap like the other guy. I asked for ideas and he already critizizing my ideas/suggestions. I understand that any engine buildup could be pricey, but for a street legal buildup, I don't think honda is anywhere near as expensive as building an EJ20 or even a EJ25. I just want either a fully built motor or built motor with spray.

 

[MikeBergy]

Subarus are much more pricey than older honda engines, that is very true. My buddy has modded his 2002 wrx with all the Cobb necessities - Access Port, bellmouth downpipe with a full 3" turboback exhaust, and upipe, and all that stuff has cost him about what my entire b18 build cost me, including my tuning tools.

The H22 will be more expensive, but if you know people, you can get could deals on parts, just do your research. If I were going to build for nitrous/all motor, I'd probably shoot for around 10:1 compression, so you won't be sluggish off th juice like you would be at 9:1 with a turbo setup. You'd have ample wiggle room for tuning, without a big risk of detonation of pump gas. If you are in the market for engine management, a chipped p28 and an obd1 conversion will be your best bet I'm guessing, I am pretty sure you can do that on even a newer gen prelude, but I'm not 100 percent sure. Crome is a good tuning package, and has provisions for datalogging. Talk to Chris Harris at Xenocron.com about getting an appropriate tuning package whatever route you decide to go.

Like I said, a good set of sleeves will be your best friend in an h22, whatever route you decide to go, and 10:1 compression will even allow for a good turbo setup if you decide that the all motor route is not for you. Golden Eagle seems to be a choice for most; I was recommended LA Sleeve, or AEBS by the only machine shop that I will let touch my motor here locally, so just do your research. 210-225 whp off juice is a very reachable goal with proper selection of components; Cams, a proper valvejob, mild porting (even a diy job would most likely suffice), a free flowing, tuned exhaust/header system, and of course dyno tuning will get you some very usable power for daily driving. Xenocron sell a thingy that is able to run two different maps on the same ecu with just a flick of a switch, so that would take care of your tuning for both tunes on and off juice.

 

[get_nick]

Quoted post[/post]]
Subarus are much more pricey than older honda engines, that is very true. My buddy has modded his 2002 wrx with all the Cobb necessities - Access Port, bellmouth downpipe with a full 3" turboback exhaust, and upipe, and all that stuff has cost him about what my entire b18 build cost me, including my tuning tools.

The H22 will be more expensive, but if you know people, you can get could deals on parts, just do your research. If I were going to build for nitrous/all motor, I'd probably shoot for around 10:1 compression, so you won't be sluggish off th juice like you would be at 9:1 with a turbo setup. You'd have ample wiggle room for tuning, without a big risk of detonation of pump gas. If you are in the market for engine management, a chipped p28 and an obd1 conversion will be your best bet I'm guessing, I am pretty sure you can do that on even a newer gen prelude, but I'm not 100 percent sure. Crome is a good tuning package, and has provisions for datalogging. Talk to Chris Harris at Xenocron.com about getting an appropriate tuning package whatever route you decide to go.

Like I said, a good set of sleeves will be your best friend in an h22, whatever route you decide to go, and 10:1 compression will even allow for a good turbo setup if you decide that the all motor route is not for you. Golden Eagle seems to be a choice for most; I was recommended LA Sleeve, or AEBS by the only machine shop that I will let touch my motor here locally, so just do your research. 210-225 whp off juice is a very reachable goal with proper selection of components; Cams, a proper valvejob, mild porting (even a diy job would most likely suffice), a free flowing, tuned exhaust/header system, and of course dyno tuning will get you some very usable power for daily driving. Xenocron sell a thingy that is able to run two different maps on the same ecu with just a flick of a switch, so that would take care of your tuning for both tunes on and off juice.

he said he wanted to build the motor for nitrous. so assuming he was going to do a forced induction set up, he would want to drop the compression to 9:1 or so. just like you said, lower the compression. I was assuming that he was going to do a full build. when you said do 10:1 so it has power not on nitrous, you confirmed what i posted about not having ample power in comparison to when he does spray.

You wouldn't expect to build a motor for turbo then not put the turbo on right? it would run weak because of the lack of compression.

But adding up the cost of all or your parts and labor, a turbo kit is still a far better route to go. An h22 with 8 pounds of boost will put you at a consistent 220-230 hp range. it will cost an extreme amount less and will have power for daily driving so you don't have to spray all the time.

yes i understand you can build a very good NA h22, but why? it's extremely expensive in comparison to adding a turbo kit and tuning it.

Quoted post[/post]]

Wrong. Seen plenty of quick all motor builds with nitrous, quick without, and quicker with.

I was assuming he was building a real build. not an "all purpose" build. Yes it is possible to build a quick all motor car then just add the nitrous.

 

[Pickles954]

Quoted post[/post]]

Quoted post[/post]]
Subarus are much more pricey than older honda engines, that is very true. My buddy has modded his 2002 wrx with all the Cobb necessities - Access Port, bellmouth downpipe with a full 3" turboback exhaust, and upipe, and all that stuff has cost him about what my entire b18 build cost me, including my tuning tools.

The H22 will be more expensive, but if you know people, you can get could deals on parts, just do your research. If I were going to build for nitrous/all motor, I'd probably shoot for around 10:1 compression, so you won't be sluggish off th juice like you would be at 9:1 with a turbo setup. You'd have ample wiggle room for tuning, without a big risk of detonation of pump gas. If you are in the market for engine management, a chipped p28 and an obd1 conversion will be your best bet I'm guessing, I am pretty sure you can do that on even a newer gen prelude, but I'm not 100 percent sure. Crome is a good tuning package, and has provisions for datalogging. Talk to Chris Harris at Xenocron.com about getting an appropriate tuning package whatever route you decide to go.

Like I said, a good set of sleeves will be your best friend in an h22, whatever route you decide to go, and 10:1 compression will even allow for a good turbo setup if you decide that the all motor route is not for you. Golden Eagle seems to be a choice for most; I was recommended LA Sleeve, or AEBS by the only machine shop that I will let touch my motor here locally, so just do your research. 210-225 whp off juice is a very reachable goal with proper selection of components; Cams, a proper valvejob, mild porting (even a diy job would most likely suffice), a free flowing, tuned exhaust/header system, and of course dyno tuning will get you some very usable power for daily driving. Xenocron sell a thingy that is able to run two different maps on the same ecu with just a flick of a switch, so that would take care of your tuning for both tunes on and off juice.

he said he wanted to build the motor for nitrous. so assuming he was going to do a forced induction set up, he would want to drop the compression to 9:1 or so. just like you said, lower the compression. I was assuming that he was going to do a full build. when you said do 10:1 so it has power not on nitrous, you confirmed what i posted about not having ample power in comparison to when he does spray.

You wouldn't expect to build a motor for turbo then not put the turbo on right? it would run weak because of the lack of compression.

But adding up the cost of all or your parts and labor, a turbo kit is still a far better route to go. An h22 with 8 pounds of boost will put you at a consistent 220-230 hp range. it will cost an extreme amount less and will have power for daily driving so you don't have to spray all the time.

yes i understand you can build a very good NA h22, but why? it's extremely expensive in comparison to adding a turbo kit and tuning it.

Quoted post[/post]]

Wrong. Seen plenty of quick all motor builds with nitrous, quick without, and quicker with.

I was assuming he was building a real build. not an "all purpose" build. Yes it is possible to build a quick all motor car then just add the nitrous.

Not to knock you in any way, but I do recall in my very first post, I did say that I would not go down the road of a turbo application and that an STI would be the only turboed car I would drive. Second, I'm trying to keep it street legal, not just the track. I'm not looking for 590whp all motor, but if I can get between 225whp and 250whp all motor, I would be happy. This is not the car I intend to keep forever, just building something up to use as a down payment on an STI in 3 years.

 

[get_nick]

i understand you don't want to knock my opinion. because that is exactly what it is, my opinion. I have a 240sx with an sr20det in it. no little honda turbo will compare for me. i was just thinking in terms of efficiency and cost effectiveness. if you like have power to the pedal on demand, i would suggest a supercharger. it would be a lot more reliable and cost effective.

If you are still set on the nitrous, i would be more than willing to give you any advice or suggestions possible. I just feel a simple $2500 turbo or supercharger is a lot more fitting than spending upwards of $5,000 on a nitrous build and tuning.

thank you for you commentary and welcome to Hondaswap.com.

 

[Pickles954]

Quoted post[/post]]
i understand you don't want to knock my opinion. because that is exactly what it is, my opinion. I have a 240sx with an sr20det in it. no little honda turbo will compare for me. i was just thinking in terms of efficiency and cost effectiveness. if you like have power to the pedal on demand, i would suggest a supercharger. it would be a lot more reliable and cost effective.

If you are still set on the nitrous, i would be more than willing to give you any advice or suggestions possible. I just feel a simple $2500 turbo or supercharger is a lot more fitting than spending upwards of $5,000 on a nitrous build and tuning.

thank you for you commentary and welcome to Hondaswap.com.

If I got another motor even if you say " upward of $5,000", I wouldn't be doing everything at one time. I'm a baller on a budget That's why I would get another motor with low miles, then I could take my time in building an all motor H22a. One month do the block, one month do the head, puttem together and Vola.

 

[get_nick]

the thing is, you already have a motor with low miles. if you are going to build a motor, i would find one that is blown for $300 or $400. and just leave the motor in your car. the motor i was speaking of being $5,000 would be after building a long block for a higher hp rating. you can get a long block for a lot cheaper than that. but don't take apart your good motor in your car just to build it. find something cheap since you are going to be doing a total build anyways.

 

[reikoshea]

well considering this is exactly what i want to do with my car, ill tell you what my engine builder has told me.

11:1 is too high of compression (CC pressure is too high) to run even on a sleeved block running race gas. He recommended i stay at 10:1 and bore and stroke the block...which is what im gonna do.

Also, crower says that you shouldnt run oversized valves with stage 2 cams. apparently there is a way to get it to work (i just cant remember what he said. Tim assured me he could do it and hes been building engines longer than ive been alive).

Engine only (not including LSD or EM components) im buying the following:

H22A Long Block (to start...i dont want any down time)
Manley Springs
Manley Retainers
Manley 1mm Oversized valves
Crower Stage 2 Cams
JE 10:1 89mm Pistons
Skat 98mm Crank
Eagle H-Beam Rods
Clevite Bearings
Zex DPI 100 shot of nitrous (gonna be track only though)

Im also gonna be using a KTeller Rage Header, Intake is gonna be stock till i have money for the ITBs. Ive already got the head finished...just time for the bottom end work (been short on money lately).

Im expecting 350 ish with nitrous...ill see what i can do on dynos when its all said and done.

 

[MikeBergy]

One way or another, I would sleeve the bottom end on an h22 regardless of whether I were building turbo, nitrous or all motor. How can you call anything an 'all purpose' build, and not be a 'real' build? The guy doesn't want a turbo; and although it may be a great way to go for most applications, he just doesn't want to go that way.

Being street legal is a lot easier to get away with NA than turbo for obvious reasons. I passed my NA b18 in my integra with 11.5:1 CR, all motor build, and living in Cali, I can say that if there was a fat turbo hanging off the front of the engine, it would in no way be able to be hidden or street legal in any way.

As far as cost, a properly built turbo engine will cost at least as much as an all motor build, because you are building the engine the same way, just changing which parts you use. 2500 turbo kits are not the same as a built engine. Built engines are built to handle power ratings, and it doesn't matter to the engine how you make that power. Whether you are making 350whp on the bottle or squeezing with a snail, the engine will need to be able to handle 350whp regardless. With a good turbo build, you are still going to spend the money to build the block properly, just as you would with a NA setup, but in a turbo setup, you are then going to have to pay for the turbo pieces, whereas with NA/Nitrous, you are going to pay for headwork, ITB's, Nitrous. It's a tradeoff imo, and even with some turbo builds you are going to get headwork done.

Reiko, why can't you run 11:1? Because the engine doesn't like it, or are you saying you can't run 11:1 with the nitrous? I'm running 11.5:1, no problems here, well, cali gas sucks, but no problems otherwise...Are you talking about the h22 specifically?

 

[get_nick]

he is only looking to get 225-250 hp. i was calling a "real build" because i thought it was going to be application specific i.e. full nitrous/turbo/sc. if he is only looking for 225-250 i would not suggest anything near reikoshea's build. Reikoshea is still going to have good power numbers when he isn't spraying.

I was simply suggesting that a turbo or supercharger is a more economical way of reaching the power goals he was going for. easier and cheaper.

I understand a properly built turbo kit will cost roughly the same as a strong NA build. But I believe a turbo kit in that price range will get him to his power goals without having to do a full motor build.

Maybe I am just anti-nitrous. I don't like the feeling of knowing that i don't have the power i want unless I spray. If he is only looking for 225-250 he could just add a zex kit with I/H/E and have those power numbers.

we are discussing engine building semantics. the facts of the matter don't change and it is just a matter of opinion. yes, 225 is an easy goal on an h22. just make it reliable by building the block and adding nitrous and you can be done. I just don't care for nitrous as opposed to the reliablity of the other methods of forced induction.

 

[reikoshea]

yeah im staying at 10:1 to reduce cylinder pressure while spraying. with that build even 10:1 im expecting 225 ish without spray.

I could probably go 11.5-12 if i wasnt spraying.