$200 for an intercooler. What do you do?
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lsvtec
GNU/Linux Evangelist
I don't want to have to close this because I think that some very good info could come from this discussion but I want to make it clear that anyone posting with this kind of attitude will see their warning level raised and possibly their posting privledges supended for a couple of days. If you have a point to make do so in a polite way and people are far more likely to listen to you. Thank you, that is all.
Pissedoffsol: that Viggen was the IC I originally was going to run on my car. 
$181 from the dealership, new.
TurboEF9, I'm going to have to side with the thermodynamics-heads)) on a couple of points:
1. Even a well placed 36 x 5 x 2 size FMIC will get heat soaked. It may even become heat soaked before the end of a single 1/4 mile pass. I can + will do the math to show that an aluminum intercooler of a specific weight has a very finite amount of energy it can absorb before being at the same temperature as the air coming out of your turbo.
2. Cranking up the boost is a dangerous way to solve pressure drop. Consider a typical JY turbo setup, IHI RB5 on a D16A6 or D15B2 with a DSM sidemount halfass rigged somewhere. the IHI RB5 is a really small turbo. It gets really inefficient real quick - most people don't try to get more than 7psi out of them because they just can't flow it. Lets say the DSM sidemount has a couple of minor holes in it from old age, and we have a 2.8 psi pressure drop across the IC. Lets say intead of running your WG off the turbo, you run it off the plenum. 7psi of boost at the plenum = 9.8 psi of boost coming out of the turbo. Not only does the turbo have to work harder to make up for the pressure drop, but the turbo also has to work harder because of the flow restriction. 9.8 psi of boost coming out of a RB5 is MUCH hotter than 7psi coming out of a RB5. Granted, I chose this example to make a point because it is somewhat of an extreme case but I hope you can see that you pressure drop = one of the worst things for a turbo system.
3. A poorly chosen IC can be worse than no IC. Look at how heat soak happens...
Beginning of race: engine pulling vacuum. IAT ~70F (ambient) intercooler temp 70F (ambient)
Wind up first gear: don't make much boost due to traction. IAT ~70F (ambient) intercooler temp 75F (had to absorb some heat from turbo)
Wind up second gear: start to pull some low boost. traction still an issue. IAT ~75F (starting to go up) intercooler temp 89F (had to absorb heat from turbo)
Wind up third gear: sustained boost for several seconds. traction no longer such an issue. IAT ~89F (going up) intercooler temp 118F (sustained boost = more heat)
Wind up fouth gear: sustained high boost for several seconds. IAT ~120F intercooler temp ~180F (sustained pull = high heat)
Where does the air get hottest with a heat soaked intercooler? The top of 4th gear! Detonation city - high load, high heat, high RPM.
$181 from the dealership, new. TurboEF9, I'm going to have to side with the thermodynamics-heads
)) on a couple of points:1. Even a well placed 36 x 5 x 2 size FMIC will get heat soaked. It may even become heat soaked before the end of a single 1/4 mile pass. I can + will do the math to show that an aluminum intercooler of a specific weight has a very finite amount of energy it can absorb before being at the same temperature as the air coming out of your turbo.
2. Cranking up the boost is a dangerous way to solve pressure drop. Consider a typical JY turbo setup, IHI RB5 on a D16A6 or D15B2 with a DSM sidemount halfass rigged somewhere. the IHI RB5 is a really small turbo. It gets really inefficient real quick - most people don't try to get more than 7psi out of them because they just can't flow it. Lets say the DSM sidemount has a couple of minor holes in it from old age, and we have a 2.8 psi pressure drop across the IC. Lets say intead of running your WG off the turbo, you run it off the plenum. 7psi of boost at the plenum = 9.8 psi of boost coming out of the turbo. Not only does the turbo have to work harder to make up for the pressure drop, but the turbo also has to work harder because of the flow restriction. 9.8 psi of boost coming out of a RB5 is MUCH hotter than 7psi coming out of a RB5. Granted, I chose this example to make a point because it is somewhat of an extreme case but I hope you can see that you pressure drop = one of the worst things for a turbo system.
3. A poorly chosen IC can be worse than no IC. Look at how heat soak happens...
Beginning of race: engine pulling vacuum. IAT ~70F (ambient) intercooler temp 70F (ambient)
Wind up first gear: don't make much boost due to traction. IAT ~70F (ambient) intercooler temp 75F (had to absorb some heat from turbo)
Wind up second gear: start to pull some low boost. traction still an issue. IAT ~75F (starting to go up) intercooler temp 89F (had to absorb heat from turbo)
Wind up third gear: sustained boost for several seconds. traction no longer such an issue. IAT ~89F (going up) intercooler temp 118F (sustained boost = more heat)
Wind up fouth gear: sustained high boost for several seconds. IAT ~120F intercooler temp ~180F (sustained pull = high heat)
Where does the air get hottest with a heat soaked intercooler? The top of 4th gear! Detonation city - high load, high heat, high RPM.
Sometimes a certain "attitude" is necessary to get a point across to single minded folks who think that they are always right. I'm not talking about anyone in particular, its just that sometimes a certain "tone" is necessary to dictate an idea. This is a very informative post. So please don't close it.
the "alternative" thrown out there so far is the OEM Saab Viggen IC. I owned one of these. I gave it to my friend Tony Fowee for his racecar cause the starion was easier to fit onto the car, and I was in a hurry.
its obvious to me that the theoretical maximum amount of heat an intercooler can sink per degree of heating = weight of intercooler * specific heat of metal used in IC construction. It is also obvious to me that this isn't realistic because that assumes both perfect heat transfer and perfect distribution of heat. Heavier ICs will work better, duh. That's pretty much the one sentence summary for this paragraph.
So you can measure pressure drop using two boost guages.
Heavier = better.
Less pressure drop = better.
even distribution of air to the entire core using fins / baffles is better than square tanks with no baffles to guide airflow.
We're starting to get a list of things to look for in an IC.
How about geometry? is length or width better? (when you can't have both)
How about Air/water vs air-air....
Keep it coming.
its obvious to me that the theoretical maximum amount of heat an intercooler can sink per degree of heating = weight of intercooler * specific heat of metal used in IC construction. It is also obvious to me that this isn't realistic because that assumes both perfect heat transfer and perfect distribution of heat. Heavier ICs will work better, duh. That's pretty much the one sentence summary for this paragraph.
So you can measure pressure drop using two boost guages.
Heavier = better.
Less pressure drop = better.
even distribution of air to the entire core using fins / baffles is better than square tanks with no baffles to guide airflow.
We're starting to get a list of things to look for in an IC.
How about geometry? is length or width better? (when you can't have both)
How about Air/water vs air-air....
Keep it coming.
I'm not too smart about boost, but that just seems logical.Wow, swapping a JY FMIC for a viggen. real intelligent.......
Plastic is really a great conductor....
You guys are morons.
And i mean that in the nicest way possible but damn you guys are ignorant.
As an engineering student that PV=nrt crap has very little previlence. this comes down to thermodynamics and the conductivity of the aluminum and air.
Also the cross sectional area and the end tanks are the most important parts of the actual intercooler design.
regardless, you drive an econobox. you want to spend $400 on an intercooler for 300whp thats your buisness not mine. Ill spend $200 on a JY intercooler and get very very similar results and if need be for that 1psi of pressure loss(or even less its been measure by more than one person. do a search on good ole honda-tech) ill turn the boost up that extra psi and tune accordingly.
Plastic is really a great conductor....
You guys are morons.
And i mean that in the nicest way possible but damn you guys are ignorant.
As an engineering student that PV=nrt crap has very little previlence. this comes down to thermodynamics and the conductivity of the aluminum and air.
Also the cross sectional area and the end tanks are the most important parts of the actual intercooler design.
regardless, you drive an econobox. you want to spend $400 on an intercooler for 300whp thats your buisness not mine. Ill spend $200 on a JY intercooler and get very very similar results and if need be for that 1psi of pressure loss(or even less its been measure by more than one person. do a search on good ole honda-tech) ill turn the boost up that extra psi and tune accordingly.
MikeBergy:
"Flow restriction will also induce a pressure change. Go read a fluid dynamics book." - Calesta
...just following the leader. Deal.
--------------
Smonkey:
Overwork the compressor? Grabbin' at straws? Trying to run 1bar at 8200rpms from your IHI? Okie dokie. An almost blind shot in the dark will hit a turbo whose compressor specs dictated by thier accompanying map would be decent for any budget Honda application. Not being overworked by mere "4psi" increase.
--------------
rannulb:
Wow, I commend you on your responsees! Had to wade through a lot of opinionated, unfactual information to get to them, but it was well worth it. And agree with all of it, in a general sense, because it's true.
The one thing about this whole thread, though, is that we're getting too general. I don't think people are understanding my position. I'm not denying any of the claims, I understand thermodynamic princples. That's not the point.
The point I am supporting is JohnnyRacer budget intercooler for a basic Honda build, rather than some $400 custom bar and plate.
In a budget setup, there will be compromises. It's inevitable. This discussion proves that. No, I agree the JohnnyRacer intercooler (Which is a Ford designed core for the PowerStroke) is not the _best_ intercooler in the world. But I firmly believe it will do it's job for what it was intended. Provide adequate cooling for low boost setups (10-12psi).
I'm not sure where this "4psi" number came from the pressure drop, as I have used thi intercooler, with a 14b, and a .42/.48 T3, and have never seen more than a 2psi difference in my customer's setup. This being measured with a boost gauge tapped at the wastegate, compared with pressure readings from the MAP sensor (tapped at the throttle body).
As for you example.. "holes in it from age".. c'mon. I know you're expressing an extreme case, but just because it's budget, doesn't mean it has to be flat out shoddy.
-------------
DTEC: Agreed, 100%.
-------------
dohch22a4:
A Mother Nature, a 9th grade science book, and experience on a number of budget turbo builds for my customers proves this. Acceptence of my position is what is being argued, generalizations are being made.
As far as my "attitude"...
My position is in support of the JohnnyRaceCar intercooler for a low boost budget build and my views are being misconstrude as if they apply to _every_ turbo setup in the world. And since this is not how I'm presenting them, I'm getting frustrated.
There seem to be a lot of people to "have" to be right. Even at the expense of completely missing the point. That is happening in this thread. I'm sure it happends all over this board, as it does on others. Notice how the thread became generalized, instead of focusing on the JRC intercooler...
-------------
Calesta:
No need. People in this thread are completly twisting and even forgetting the point of this thread. And apparently, it doens't matter if your facts are correct, your post count influences entirely too much.
...I expect this thread with turn into a flame war since no one is actually has experience with the JRC intercooler on different setups than BBKA and I.
..good luck with this thread.
"Flow restriction will also induce a pressure change. Go read a fluid dynamics book." - Calesta
...just following the leader. Deal.
--------------
Smonkey:
Overwork the compressor? Grabbin' at straws? Trying to run 1bar at 8200rpms from your IHI? Okie dokie. An almost blind shot in the dark will hit a turbo whose compressor specs dictated by thier accompanying map would be decent for any budget Honda application. Not being overworked by mere "4psi" increase.
--------------
rannulb:
Wow, I commend you on your responsees! Had to wade through a lot of opinionated, unfactual information to get to them, but it was well worth it. And agree with all of it, in a general sense, because it's true.
The one thing about this whole thread, though, is that we're getting too general. I don't think people are understanding my position. I'm not denying any of the claims, I understand thermodynamic princples. That's not the point.
The point I am supporting is JohnnyRacer budget intercooler for a basic Honda build, rather than some $400 custom bar and plate.
In a budget setup, there will be compromises. It's inevitable. This discussion proves that. No, I agree the JohnnyRacer intercooler (Which is a Ford designed core for the PowerStroke) is not the _best_ intercooler in the world. But I firmly believe it will do it's job for what it was intended. Provide adequate cooling for low boost setups (10-12psi).
I'm not sure where this "4psi" number came from the pressure drop, as I have used thi intercooler, with a 14b, and a .42/.48 T3, and have never seen more than a 2psi difference in my customer's setup. This being measured with a boost gauge tapped at the wastegate, compared with pressure readings from the MAP sensor (tapped at the throttle body).
As for you example.. "holes in it from age".. c'mon.
I know you're expressing an extreme case, but just because it's budget, doesn't mean it has to be flat out shoddy. -------------
DTEC: Agreed, 100%.
-------------
dohch22a4:
A Mother Nature, a 9th grade science book, and experience on a number of budget turbo builds for my customers proves this. Acceptence of my position is what is being argued, generalizations are being made.
As far as my "attitude"...
My position is in support of the JohnnyRaceCar intercooler for a low boost budget build and my views are being misconstrude as if they apply to _every_ turbo setup in the world. And since this is not how I'm presenting them, I'm getting frustrated.
There seem to be a lot of people to "have" to be right. Even at the expense of completely missing the point. That is happening in this thread. I'm sure it happends all over this board, as it does on others. Notice how the thread became generalized, instead of focusing on the JRC intercooler...
-------------
Calesta:
No need. People in this thread are completly twisting and even forgetting the point of this thread. And apparently, it doens't matter if your facts are correct, your post count influences entirely too much.
...I expect this thread with turn into a flame war since no one is actually has experience with the JRC intercooler on different setups than BBKA and I.
..good luck with this thread.
[Freemantle]
Senior Member
Good thing people read it when someone pointed this out 2 days ago. Oh wait, that was me.
And to add. Thermal efficency is everything. Havent you ever seen an intercooler's efficency reading? This shows us how much of the air passing through can keep initial pressure and velocity assuming charge temerature decrease and density increase (duh).
This is about to turn to a Boost vs Moles thread again, I can feel it.
The JRCIC is constructed in a way that does not supply large enough core surfece area and innefficent turbulators. This is going to give you some flow restriction. The problem with this setup is that you will experience a good deal of boost loss just from the IC. I'm not saying anything as drastic as 4psi, but there will be considerable loss.
EF9 was right in saying *turn up the boost*. This is providing
A) Your Turbo still stays nice and efficient at the higher wastegate setting.
B) Your setup does not require a super-quick spool. Through a JRCIC you will have a longer wait until you experience full boost at the plenum.
Now to state against the JRCIC:
The higher intake temps you will feel from the higher boost will push you a little bit closer to that surge line. The amount of heat transfer to bring charge temperatures down again almost makes it to where you are just getting back to normal operation by running the FMIC. This dosen't mean "No IC is better". It means that there are complications beyond just heat soak, and a 90% efficient (or worse) JRCIC may really only have a 66% effective efficiency.
To see success with the JRCIC it may be to your advantage to run a larger a/r trim compressor. Getting to the right side of the compressor map is your biggest concern.
In the end: compromise.
You may have better fortune dropping an extra $200 for a good Intercooler, letting you run lower boost, yeilding higher efficency, and giving you upward mobility. If anything, put a JRC sticker on your car to deter thieves.
Yes, surface area is what you should be worried about.......couldnt be cross sectional area..........
You take the cross sectional area, and then you worry about the distance it has to go over.
Again, no one is saying this is the best intercooler in the world, but if yuo are suggesting more than a 2psi pressure drop under 15psi you are a dumbass.
When i get home ill open my physics book and start typing out some equations of how your thermal conductivity and cross sectional area is far more important than the surface area(face)
You take the cross sectional area, and then you worry about the distance it has to go over.
Again, no one is saying this is the best intercooler in the world, but if yuo are suggesting more than a 2psi pressure drop under 15psi you are a dumbass.
When i get home ill open my physics book and start typing out some equations of how your thermal conductivity and cross sectional area is far more important than the surface area(face)
If you want to start a pissing match on who posted first, go read the thread that was the reason for starting this thread. I posted this simplistic bullshit way before you did. Now sit down and discuss instead of being an asshole and trying to look like you're the only one who can talk thermodynamics. Ass.
Because of people like you, I will no longer participate in technical threads like this.
j/pbeerbongskickass
Senior Member
This is why this thread got started and why the last thread got out of hand.
"Intercoolers- those johnnyracer ICs suck big time. Look at their internal cross sections... I measured one that a friend had and it came out to the equivalent of a 1.7" pipe! Not only that, but they're so goddamn long. Oh sure, they fill the grill, but they're show pieces with next to no functionality. Yes, in some cases, an intercooler is worse than none at all, and this is one. You want a good IC that flows well for cheap? MX-6/ Probe GT IC or one from a Cougar XR-7."
What did I say in reply? Did I say they were the best flowing intercoolers ever? Not once. I said for a budget honda build up they will flow enough for 300whp easily and it's been proving! Lots of cars are running these intercoolers without any problems. You can get them cheap, they are quality made intercoolers, they look better than a junkyard intercooler, and customer service is great. What more do you want? I'm not going to spend $1,000 on a budget turbo kit and then drop $500 for an intercooler when I can get one that will work perfectly fine for $200. Best bang for you buck if you ask me.
I IM'd "loco honkey" and asked nicely to reply to this thread with his "facts" he claimed to have, but he declined and said I don't care anymore.
"Intercoolers- those johnnyracer ICs suck big time. Look at their internal cross sections... I measured one that a friend had and it came out to the equivalent of a 1.7" pipe! Not only that, but they're so goddamn long. Oh sure, they fill the grill, but they're show pieces with next to no functionality. Yes, in some cases, an intercooler is worse than none at all, and this is one. You want a good IC that flows well for cheap? MX-6/ Probe GT IC or one from a Cougar XR-7."
What did I say in reply? Did I say they were the best flowing intercoolers ever? Not once. I said for a budget honda build up they will flow enough for 300whp easily and it's been proving! Lots of cars are running these intercoolers without any problems. You can get them cheap, they are quality made intercoolers, they look better than a junkyard intercooler, and customer service is great. What more do you want? I'm not going to spend $1,000 on a budget turbo kit and then drop $500 for an intercooler when I can get one that will work perfectly fine for $200. Best bang for you buck if you ask me.
I IM'd "loco honkey" and asked nicely to reply to this thread with his "facts" he claimed to have, but he declined and said I don't care anymore.
MikeBergy
Blah blah blah....
EF9..If you want to be an ass, go hook up a differential manometer across your Johnny crapper IC, and tell me there is an increase in pressure at the IC exit. You are right by saying that you can just get to the Manifold pressure you desire by just adding boost, but why decrease the turbo's efficiency and make the POS IC work harder than it has to to remove the excessive heay, when you can just get a better IC? Better parts are gonna save your money and your ass in the long run. Less wear and tear on the system, more reliable setup. Come back and insult my intelligence when you post some actual numbers. Have questions? Come on over to my house and feel free to read one of my 3 thermodynamics books. Don't be an ass, and post some real experimental numbers if you wanna help the thrread starter out.
Thanks
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