200 whp B16a2

[jamesA]

That's right, you might remember what I said in the lounge, I want to make my B16 produce 200 whp Naturally aspirated, without upping the displacement using B18 internal or external parts, and without a turbo.

Since my brothers 2000 SI dyno'd 148 at the wheels, I'm guessing my SI will lose anywhere from 10 to 15 hp in the drivetrain. If at all possible I'd like to get as close to 200 whp as possible.

I just want to know what kind of products I can use to achieve this goal, I've been doing a tad bit of research so I'm not completely clueless, but I'm still a no0b with Honda's.

My plans so far are skunk2 cams, I haven't decided which stage, I'm thinking most likely Stage III because they're the same price as Stage II setup, and I'm gonna need the valvetrain upgrade anyway.

Visit Skunk2 Page for details on the Cams.

I want a cold air intake, but the best one I've found is AEM. $220 dollars for about 8 hp with an intake is a bit rich for my blood. Is there something that is (product here)>>>>AEM that is about the same price? (B, I know you said something to this effect...can't find it though)...

Would a port and polish on my head and intake runners (after the TB, but before the head) be helpful in anyway possible on an N/A engine? (Notice I said head...not heads)

Would a polished Exhaust header help me create power by helping the scavanging process? If it helped in anyway, what's the best product (opinions welcome) to buy?

What kind of Catback exhaust system have the pro's here used? I want to know the best system out there that will increase flow and power without destroying the backpressure and making it sound like I'm sittin on a toilet with a bad case of rice poisoning.


Thanks for any help.

 

[B16]

200 whp will take some work to get out of an N/A b16. mine was mildly built and i put 171 to the ground. up your compression, get some CTR pistons will put you around 11.7:1. i've heard the skunk2 stage3's are really rough on your rockers, if you want real wild, get some Toda spec D's, you can get them from eriks racing. yes port polish your head, get valve job, screw the intake manifold get ITB's and a hytec header straight pipe and a straight exhaust, i liked my tanabe racing medallion. hondata minimum for engine management, aem, tec, motec if you've got the money. that should put you near 200whp, and yes it would be very expensive

 

[hondadriver]

Or you can get a Gude head Package, you buy there head and sent yours back as a core, and they do port & polish and cams, i'm not really sure what else! I've read that for the b-series it should boost up 55 hp, and for the d-series like 23 hp. I'm doing a b16a2 Sir swap into my 6 gen civic this winter and i really want to get this package, but i think its like $1500. Which is cheaper then doing a seperate port and polish and buying cams seperately and what ever else they do! T find out more just go to their site. And that will put you at 55 + 148 = 203

 

[B16]

gude is hands down the worst company you could have do any work or get any parts from, period.

 

[posol]

maybe 2nd to RActive. lol but thats about it.

200 whp from a b16 won't be cheap. end of story.

ctr pistons might not even be enough... you need mad domes. 12.5:1 compression, but then, you gotta be careful with the cam choice to make sure your valves don't hit.

frankly, i think the goal is pretty unrealistic.

 

[phunky.buddha]

It's doable without TOO much cash, but it's still going to cost you a bunch. Example- if you're looking at the Toda Ds or the Skunk2 stage 3s, you're going to have to modify your rockers/followers to handle the massive lift on the cams. That's one of the reason why the Skunk2 stage 3s are generally considered non-streetable... I think the lift is something crazy like 12.8mm, and I'm pretty sure the Honda valvetrain can only handle 12.5mm at the most. Standard aftermarket valve springs will generally only handle 12.0mm of lift, and after that you're getting into some pretty heavy duty springs that will start eating up your cam with all the pressure.

On the intake, I would really go with a short ram inside a custom air box- you get the advantage of the CAI by breathing in colder air (like it matters when you're moving), and the advantage of the short ram by having a large short pipe to increase air velocity and flow. You would probably spend less fabricating something like that in comparison to buying AEM's expensive unit too.

ITBs really aren't necessary... and you can't use Hondata to tune them anyway, so you would be getting into some serious engine management dollars if you went with an ITB setup.

Porting your head and your intake manifold together will get you very good results... polishing the inside of the header helps as well, but you should really go for a good custom header. Get a custom exhaust too- 2.5 inch mandrel bent all the way back, using a straight pipe or a good high flow cat, then running through a small (or no) resonator (yes it will sound like ass) and then a straight through muffler. That will get you the most power.

Crank your compression up to at least 12.5:1, then tune tune tune.

 

[2 litre EG]

to be completely honest, the driver of L'Natural [Shaun Hillier]... has broken 200whp with a b16... although it was milled to shit!! and he did internal block work.

he also ran 11's in his EK with that crazy b16 setup...

but then again it wasnt reliable at all from what i heard...

anyways, IMO, your goal is pretty unrealistic by the way things stand at the moment

<_<

 

[phunky.buddha]

Originally posted by 2 litre EG@Oct 10 2003, 02:58 AM
anyways, IMO, your goal is pretty unrealistic by the way things stand at the moment

I don't know about that... there are a good number of B16s running around Dallas making 160-165whp without going inside the engine or porting the head, so maybe with a nice compression bump and port work 200whp isn't too too far away.

 

[2 litre EG]

Originally posted by Calesta+Oct 10 2003, 12:01 AM-->

2 litre EG

@Oct 10 2003, 02:58 AM
anyways, IMO, your goal is pretty unrealistic by the way things stand at the moment

I don't know about that... there are a good number of B16s running around Dallas making 160-165whp without going inside the engine or porting the head, so maybe with a nice compression bump and port work 200whp isn't too too far away.

true it is possible...

like they say, anything is possible, just as long as you put your mind and heart to it"

damn how cliche can i get!

 

[phunky.buddha]

Originally posted by 2 litre EG@Oct 10 2003, 03:12 AM
damn how cliche can i get!

Pretty damn bad, I guess.

I really do think that not too much more effort could extract 200whp from a B16, especially compared to results produced on the dyno at Intercrew. Hell, I saw a guy make 195whp all motor on a GSR block, and that was without going inside, and with only Skunk2 stage 1 cams- not the more aggressive stage 2 or 3. No head work, just I/H/E, cams, Skunk2 IM, tuning. That's it.

 

[asmallsol]

Originally posted by Calesta@Oct 10 2003, 03:36 AM
using a straight pipe or a good high flow cat, then running through a small (or no) resonator (yes it will sound like ass) and then a straight through muffler. That will get you the most power.

a queiter approach for exhaust choice would be a twin Loop exhaust system like the Mugen Twin loop, or Hytechs.

 

[JDMilan]

dude, it's the resonator that you want.

I had a ITR 4-1 with 2.5inch collector, with test pipe and WS apex exhaust, and it was fucking quiet as fuck. Before I had a DC 4-1 with 2.25 collector, test pipe and then 2.25 crush bent no resontator B pipe with a Fireball axle back, it was way way way tooooooo loud..simply terrible.

 

[B16]

Originally posted by Calesta@Oct 9 2003, 11:36 PM
ITBs really aren't necessary... and you can't use Hondata to tune them anyway, so you would be getting into some serious engine management dollars if you went with an ITB setup.

i've seen hondata tune the toda ITB's, so it can be done.

I really do think that not too much more effort could extract 200whp from a B16, especially compared to results produced on the dyno at Intercrew. Hell, I saw a guy make 195whp all motor on a GSR block, and that was without going inside, and with only Skunk2 stage 1 cams- not the more aggressive stage 2 or 3. No head work, just I/H/E, cams, Skunk2 IM, tuning. That's it.

that is about what my B16 had and i made 171 to the wheels, to get another 30hp to the wheels is asking a lot, it can be done, but it will be a pretty wild setup.

 

[swanny]

Originally posted by JDMilan@Oct 10 2003, 10:04 AM
dude, it's the resonator that you want.

I had a ITR 4-1 with 2.5inch collector, with test pipe and WS apex exhaust, and it was fucking quiet as fuck. Before I had a DC 4-1 with 2.25 collector, test pipe and then 2.25 crush bent no resontator B pipe with a Fireball axle back, it was way way way tooooooo loud..simply terrible.

i have the apex world sport on my car and i love it. its damn close to being as quiet as my stock shit smaller tip, ive also heard that the greddy evo system is quiet and doesnt have a coffe can style tip aswell.

 

[JDMilan]

the evo is nice also, I pretty the WS oval style flat muff...

 

[2 litre EG]

Originally posted by B16@Oct 10 2003, 07:15 AM
i've seen hondata tune the toda ITB's, so it can be done.

yeah i think your right b16... i think the hondata can tune ITBs but only the Toda Version...

the TWM ITBs require a stand alone fuel management?

i wanted TWM's before, but now that i have Hondata im just gonna stick with the Toda's

 

[phunky.buddha]

Originally posted by B16@Oct 10 2003, 10:15 AM
i've seen hondata tune the toda ITB's, so it can be done.

that is about what my B16 had and i made 171 to the wheels, to get another 30hp to the wheels is asking a lot, it can be done, but it will be a pretty wild setup.

Ok, I was under the impression that Hondata couldn't read more than one set of intake sensors... at least not much more than the stock Honda ECU could read. I'm a little hazy right now so I can't recall what all the sensors are- but I thought the whole advantage to using ITBs was being able to tune each cylinder's a/f ratio independently because you were able to read all the info for each intake path separately... otherwise you might as well just get an IM with huge runners and a monster plenum- it would do the same thing.

Your B16 had what in it? No internal block work or you did? P&P or not?

 

[B16]

Originally posted by 2 litre EG+Oct 10 2003, 08:32 AM-->

B16

@Oct 10 2003, 07:15 AM
i've seen hondata tune the toda ITB's, so it can be done.

yeah i think your right b16... i think the hondata can tune ITBs but only the Toda Version...

the TWM ITBs require a stand alone fuel management?

i wanted TWM's before, but now that i have Hondata im just gonna stick with the Toda's

Ok, I was under the impression that Hondata couldn't read more than one set of intake sensors... at least not much more than the stock Honda ECU could read. I'm a little hazy right now so I can't recall what all the sensors are- but I thought the whole advantage to using ITBs was being able to tune each cylinder's a/f ratio independently because you were able to read all the info for each intake path separately... otherwise you might as well just get an IM with huge runners and a monster plenum- it would do the same thing.

supposidly the toda itb's can be a direct replacement to your OEM manifold, so i'm assuming it uses the stock sensors.

Your B16 had what in it? No internal block work or you did? P&P or not?

bottom end was stock, mugen head gasket, skunk2 stage1 cams, itr valve train, skunk2 cam gears, skunk2 intake manifold, hondata heatsheild, AEM FPR, 64mm bored TB, DC 4-1 header, JRSC cat, tanabe racing medallion cat back, AEM CAI, vafc, and mugen p28. car was tuned.

EDIT: no p&p

 

[B16]

might as well post the dyno sheets now some thief has this motor

actual (non corrected) after tuning

 

[phunky.buddha]

Well damn, 171whp on that setup is actually pretty nice. I'm sure higher compression and a good P&P job would have gotten you pretty close to 200whp.