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'94 civic hatchback

Discussion in 'Civic and del Sol - EG and EK' started by jdbdkid93, Nov 22, 2008.

  1. jdbdkid93

    jdbdkid93 New Member

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    k. so i have a '94 civic hatchback and im looking to get a new engine for it (along with trans ecu ya know the whole deal) but i dont really know what ta get. im leaning towards a f22 or an h22. but i figure id get some other ppls opinions b4 i made the final decision. maybe someone can shed some light and help me out. so anyone got anything?
     
  2. MisterMister

    MisterMister USDM whore

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    First; The F22 is the bastard child of the Honda engines. Don't bother with one, they aren't anything like the H, B or K series motors.

    Second; what are your goals? Do you want this to be a reliable daily driver (DD)? Do you want it to be a full blown track car? Do you want to make a lot of Hp for dyno pulls? Do you want to run it basically for drag racing? Do you want to be able to have an engine suited for road race/auto-x? Or are you basically looking for something which will give you all around performance while being good for driving around on the streets?

    Third; What format are you trying to run? Do you want this to be all motor? Do you want to run a turbo or supercharger? Planning on using nitrous?

    Last (and most important); How much money are you looking to initially spend on this? I need a figure before I can answer any of the rest of this.

    -MM
     
  3. jdbdkid93

    jdbdkid93 New Member

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    well. i dont want a track car. i want something i can drive around and have alot of fun doing so. eventually i was gonna supercharge it but only cuz with turbos you gotta mess with all that extra exaust stuff n whatnot. and right now i've got about 6,000 dollars im looking to spend. but not all on one thing. i want to get most of it bought with close to that. so what can you tell me
     
  4. jdbdkid93

    jdbdkid93 New Member

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    forgot to add that i wasnt exactly planning to spend 6'000 on the whole thing. only to spend 6,000 to get started. but that is what i have at the time
     
  5. MisterMister

    MisterMister USDM whore

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    Do you have someone who can put together and engine for you if you buy the parts (rods, pistons, crank, etc.), or are you going to need to buy a pre-built motor?

    Also, you will need to upgrade the exhaust on any car with FI, supercharger or not. A Stock exhaust on either car will be a HUGE bottleneck.
     
  6. jdbdkid93

    jdbdkid93 New Member

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    well heres the deal. this is my first car. so. i really am going based on what my source tells me. which is my buddys big brother. who is pretty experienced. so i guess ill just ask for your opinion on everything. i really have no clue what im doing other than what he tells me. i just want to make sure i am doing the best thing by getting some fresh opinions and not going based solely on what he says. so if you could just give me a few different options and then maybe pick one that you would opt for that would be great.
     
  7. BrutalB83

    BrutalB83 Brutal Moderator Moderator VIP

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    Uh...ok? And how did you arrive at that conclusion? There's plenty of things you can with an F-series engine (boost, dual-cam head swap, etc.). I personally wouldn't undertake the effort required to swap one into a Civic, but they're not bad platforms for modifying if that's what you're starting off with...
     
  8. MisterMister

    MisterMister USDM whore

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    For a first car, I suggest a mild naturally aspirated build. You can always throw on a Jackson Racing Super Charger system later on as you grow into the car and become used to the power you started with.

    A good place to start would be a B series engine. I suggest that you use a B18C1 block from the Acura Integra GS-R. Combine this with a B16A2 head (the same motor found in the 99-00 EM1 Civic Si coupe).

    The B18C1 block is very popular, so they arent very expensive, and they perform very well for non turbo applications. The B16A2 head is one of Hondas best flowing units aside from the Integra Type R (B18C5) and K20 series engines. Put the two together and you have a very good starting point for an NA build.

    So you now have a B18C1 block with a B16A2 head. You will want to throw in a 2 layer head gasket, which is thinner then the stock OEM unit. This increases compression, which will help make more power.

    Now this is where you can get sort of fancy. You can decide to do some headwork to that B16A2 head. If you want, you can throw in some aftermarker valve springs, & retainers. This will allow the engine to run more aggressive cam profiles, making more power as well as being able to rev higher safely. You can also have a shop mill a little material off of the B16A2 head to further increase the compression ratio. Ideally, you want around an 11.5:1 compression ratio, which is very easy to obtain with that 2 layer head gasket and a very slight head milling.

    If you do all this, you can then run some aggressive cam profiles like the Skunk 2 Stage 2 cams, the Blox Type B cams, or the Toda Spec-B cams.

    Of course, if you DONT do the head milling, you will want a LESS aggressive cam profile, so something like a Skunk 2 Stage 1 or Blox Type A cam is what you will want. Going with the more aggressive cams without the proper compression ratio will make you LOOSE power, so dont think the more aggressive cam the better. Thats NOT the case. ALso, if you do NOT upgrade the valve springs/retainers, you WONT be able to run said more aggressive cams.

    Then you will want to mate this to the proper transmission. The Honda B16A2 or the Integra Type-R's B18C5 5 speed manual tranny are best. These have the best gearing for a naturally aspirated engine. Both trannys have the same basic gearing, but the B18C5 tranny has a limied slip (good for traction) as well as dual cone synchros in 1st and 2nd gear (shifts smoother).

    Obviously the B16A2 tranny is cheaper, and there is NOTHING wrong with this unit. If you dont have enough money for the B18C5 unit, dont think you are having to sacrafice anything by going with the B16A unit. You can always add a limited slip later on if you need one.

    So, lets say you go with the baller option and get the good stuff, that would mean you are putting together a:

    B18C1 short block, combined with a B16A2 head using upgraded (Ferra is a good company) valve springs and retainers. The head will be milled by aboput 0.30mm, and you will be using a 2 layer head gasket, giving you a ~11.3-11.5:1 compression ratio. The head will also house Skunk 2 Stage 2 or Blox Type B cams.

    All of this will be mated to either an OEM B16A2 or B18C5 5 speed manual transmission.

    You will also need some axles which will mount to your hybrid application. Hasport and The Drive Shaft Shop both makes hybrid axles for this application.

    Let's not forget the ECU while we are at it, since none of this will run without one. You are in luck because you can run a P28 ECU. This is a sock Honda unit which can be "chipped" to run a custom ECU tune via programs like "Crome" or "Uberdata". You will REALLY want a knowledgable Honda tuner to tune this thing on a dyno.

    So, after all is said and done you have a B18C1/B16A2 engine, running ~11.5:1 CR w/ "Stage 2" cams and a mildly upgraded valve train, using a chipped and tuned P28 ECU, all of which is running through a B16A2 or B18C5 transmission.

    If tuned properly, and using the basic bolt ons (intake, header, exhaust), you will be able to realize around 200HP at the WHEELS. In a light car like you hatch, that is more then enough to run down WRX's, V8 Mustangs, S2000s, and a lot of other cars. You will basically be able to pull down low 13 second 1/4 mile times without the aide of drag slicks, as long as you can learn to drive it properly.

    Later on, you can add a low pressure turbo or a super-charger and that will putit all over the top, allowing you to run 12 second ETs.

    Of course, if this is all way too complicated for you, you can pick up a used ITR motor. Either a JDM (B18C) or USDM (B18C5). This engine, including the transmission and ECU will be less then the 6K dollars you are looking to spend. It wont put out at much power right off the bat, but it will still be way more then you should have for a first car.

    -MM
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2008
  9. jdbdkid93

    jdbdkid93 New Member

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    hmm thanks man. i will definately look into this one
     
  10. MisterMister

    MisterMister USDM whore

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    FYI, if you pick something like that H22A you were thinking about, odds are you will need to remove either the AC, power steering, or both. Just something to consider.
     
  11. MisterMister

    MisterMister USDM whore

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    FYI, if you pick something like that H22A you were thinking about, odds are you will need to remove either the AC, power steering, or both. Just something to consider. This is why I suggest a DOHC B series engine for the swap. its an easier fit and doesnt require any real custom fabrication or removal of accessories like AC or PS.
     
  12. jdbdkid93

    jdbdkid93 New Member

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    hmm. welll the A/c is broken and it doesnt have power steering (its a cx. guess i should have mentioned) so uhh with this said. whats your view on the h22 swap
     
  13. MisterMister

    MisterMister USDM whore

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    Big, lots of torque, good for boost, dont rev as high (NOT a big deal), wont make as much power as the engine I mentioned above unless you build it up. Also, I prefer the B16A/B18C5 transmissions to the H22 5 spd.

    Nothing wrong with it, just make sure its an H22A (DOHC VTEC). With hatches, though, I like to keep things as light as can be. H22A is heavier then any B series engines.

    Check it:

    http://www.dh-racing.com/motors.html#monst
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2008
  14. jdbdkid93

    jdbdkid93 New Member

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    hmm thanks for the help man. unfortunately im on the east coast and its pretty last ovr here. and i got somewhere to be tomorrow morning. so im gonna go. thanks for all the help again.
     
  15. BrutalB83

    BrutalB83 Brutal Moderator Moderator VIP

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    Actually, you can keep them both. Maybe you should just stick to providing B-series info, since you don't seem to be that knowledgeable in the F/H-series realm...
     
  16. MisterMister

    MisterMister USDM whore

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    I didn't say he couldn't keep those accessories, I simply implied that there is a [FONT=&quot]possibility[/FONT] that he will have to do this. Relocation and or a removal of at least the AC is very common place for novice H22 swaps in chassis such as his. I would have thought hat obvious to people who have done these sorts of jobs before. Keep in mind, I'm not saying its anywhere near impossible to keep them, but without extra fabrication and or relocation it becomes harder to do, making it not as "plug and play" as a B series swap.

    As far as the "bastard child" comment, you are obviously reading too much into it. I am telling him that its not a worth while block to use given this application. Hell, I could build an all motor ZC engine which will open a can of whoopass on most any NA B-series build, that doesn't mean I would suggest he do that. It takes the odd duck, money, skill, and the right chassis to want to go that route.

    As I said, the F series out of the Accord/Prelude isn't the greatest engine to build up, unless you want to do a lot of work and drop a lot of money into it. Something which most people tend to avoid given the better options out there.

    BTW, just because we might not see eye to eye on some aspects doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about in those respects.

    -MM
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2008
  17. BrutalB83

    BrutalB83 Brutal Moderator Moderator VIP

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    Well then why can't you just say that rather then making it seem like it's nearly impossible? If we're talking about an H22 swap into a Civic at all then we're already past the "simple bolt-in swap" stage...

    Once again, why can't you just say that then? When I hear the term "bastard child" it implies (to me anyway) an engine that's completely different and completely worthless in terms of modifying, which, in my opinion, doesn't exactly fit here.

    As far as N/A builds go, then yes, I wouldn't recommend starting with an F22. But, you do have some possibilities to explore. You can swap an H22 or H23 head onto the block, ending up with something similar to a larger LS/VTEC combo. Also, the F22's factory iron sleeves and not-so-high compression ratio lend themselves decently well to boost. You could throw a junkyard turbo kit on to one and have yourself a nice, 200+ wheel horse car for relatively cheap. Or, combine the two options: throw an H22 head on there and have dual-cam VTEC plus the iron sleeves.

    And as for the swap itself, you'd do it in the exact same manner as you would an H22 swap into a Civic. So yes, I agree that for a Civic, the trouble of an F22 probably isn't worth it for the amount of power it offers in stock form (I'd at least do an H22 if you're going to go to the trouble of a less-then-bolt-in swap), but I wouldn't call it a "bastard child engine" either...

    Well, please forgive me for doubting you, but from the way you were talking here, that's the impression I got... :shrug:
     
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