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de-stroked gsr (pseudo B16B)

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by bwaynep, Jul 17, 2008.

  1. bwaynep

    bwaynep Drives Like Gramps...

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    I was wondering if it was possible to use the internals from a b16b in a GSR?

    I've always thought that the b16b was a unique little motor and having just started a series of classes where I have access to the machine shop I was thinking about putting one together... assuming it fits :confused:

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. newb

    newb phresh VIP

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    www.zealautowerks.com

    Plug in the parts your tryin to use, and see what happens.
     
  3. bwaynep

    bwaynep Drives Like Gramps...

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    Thanks for the zealauto link, I've been playing around with that for a while now (back when all I could get to was some russian archive of the site!). That's how most of this got started. I understand that I can't pass a b16b at the referee station, BUT I can pass a "gsr" (or pass a stock gsr then swap in the b16b clone). I'm more wondering about crank bearing sizes and packaging issues.

    Sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my first post.
     
  4. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    The B16 crank should swap straight over to the B18C block. The B18C and B16B deck heights are the same. You'll need the B16B rods though- their length is unique to the B16B block.

    If you want to run a really nice high revving setup, stuff the B16 crank into a GSR block with new sleeves and a really large bore (like 85-86mm). Just make sure that your engine is nice and warm when you bring it to the ref so that the forged pistons don't sound too different at startup. :) With the short stroke and large displacement from the big bore, you'll have a really smooth engine with a really flat torque curve.
     
  5. bwaynep

    bwaynep Drives Like Gramps...

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    Thanks for the info!

    I'm going to have to start gathering parts. I start the program in September so I'll post updates when I start getting things together.

    I'm beginning to really like the sound of this motor going into my 1990 Si


    :D
     
  6. bwaynep

    bwaynep Drives Like Gramps...

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    Ok, one more question...

    I used to have a GSR and I remember it having a dual track intake manifold. Any problems using this on a higher revving motor?

    Pros/Cons?

    It seems that Skunk2 has a single track intake manifold that is CARB legal. any opinions?
     
  7. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Two intake manifold pathways just let you tune the intake air charge for two different rev ranges. An infinitely variable manifold would be ideal (if you're keeping an intake manifold). Pros = more tunability. Cons = more tunability. :)
     
  8. SlushboxTeggy

    SlushboxTeggy It's only stupid if it doesn't work VIP

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    While this sounds like something with great potential, I don't think it is something to take on as a first build (I'm assuming it is because of the program). I see this ending with a great motor or a lot of scrap metal.

    If it were me, machine the GSR rods to fit the B16B pistons (you have to to make them fit), ARP everything, MAYBE replace bearings depending on mileage, and enjoy.

    Or just boost the GSR, haha.
     
  9. bwaynep

    bwaynep Drives Like Gramps...

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    I don't think it would be an ideal first build... luckily I've already passed that point :D

    I have a d16a6 that my dad and I rebuilt in our garage. Scat rods, SRP pistons, ARP rod bolts and head studs, MLS head gasket and a rebuilt (stock) head. Runs like a champ. We built it for the Jackson Racing supercharger, unfortunately by the time we'd finished the build and got the motor in the car the supercharger had been discontinued. So I have a d16 with close to stock compression and balanced, forged internals. Should last forever, but I'm looking for a little more power.

    If I can find a 92-95 hatch I'd consider dropping the motor in there instead of my 90 Si, the later platforms seem to be a little more supported these days.
     
  10. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    It's just a crank swap. :shrug:

    Turbocharge the D16?
     
  11. bwaynep

    bwaynep Drives Like Gramps...

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    I'd love to have a turbo kit that wouldn't get my car impounded... but seriously I do love California.

    I guess my "non ideal" statement about the B16b/GSR build is that I'm not that familiar with the B series engine (and that's not what was in the car to begin with). If it's truly nothing more than a rebuild with some slightly different internals then I'm sure it won't be too tough.

    Again, thanks for all the help. HondaSwap is feeling like the best place to ask questions without having people jump on you for your ideas.
     
  12. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Oooooooooh right forgot about the whole living in California thing.

    The rebuild is basically just using different internals, but because the block height for the B16B/B18/B20 is different from the B16A, you HAVE to use B16B length rods (or custom) for the B16 crank in a B18 height block.
     
  13. bwaynep

    bwaynep Drives Like Gramps...

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    So just after posting my last reply I went looking for a little more info. Some "other" Honda board mentioned that the crank bearings are different between the B16 and B18c and that the crank is not a direct drop in. Any validity in that?

    If so I guess the next question is by how much are they off? I can always machine the crank to accept larger bearings but will that have a negative effect on the strength of the crank?

    And yes, California smog sucks. :D
     
  14. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    I'm pretty sure they're the same. The best way to check would be to get a copy of a del Sol VTEC or 99-00 Si service manual and see what it says for the main journal diameter, then check any 94-01 Integra service manual and compare. I only have the Integra manual, so I can't do that for you and be 100% sure.

    I wouldn't machine the crank, but you CAN do it and not lose too much structural integrity. That's how quite a few people changed the stroke before custom cranks cams out- they offset ground the journals.
     
  15. bwaynep

    bwaynep Drives Like Gramps...

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    Cool, I downloaded and checked the two (gsr and b16) and the only difference seems so small that I don't think it would be an issue, but I'm no real expert (yet!).

    Assuming the Factory Manuals are correct the main journals are the same for #'s 1,2,4,5

    The diameter for #3 is:
    B16A - 54.970-54.994
    B18C - 54.976-54.998

    Any ideas on if this difference would cause any issues? I guess that it would be better to buy a #3 journal that fell somewhere within the service limit for both motors right?

    Thanks again.
     
  16. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Yup, that looks like it'll work just fine. I wouldn't worry too much about the #3 journal. Just spec out your bearings a hair thinner for that journal (if that was the block side measurement, otherwise go thicker). You can actually look around online and find out the real thicknesses of each size of bearing and the figure out what you need by measuring everything out- but you really could be anywhere in that range of measurements, so I would just plastigauge the hell out of everything.
     
  17. bwaynep

    bwaynep Drives Like Gramps...

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    I was lurking on Team Integra and spotted a specification that I can't seem to find in either service manual. The rod width... supposedly it's different between the B18c/B16b family of motors and the B16a's and B18A/B...

    "The B18C1, B18C5, and B16B rod are 1.96-2 mm narrower (0.858 in. vs. 0.935 in. in non-R rods) at the crank end (or rod "big end") and will not fit on the other Honda B series cranks or pistons.

    On the small end of the rod (from FF Squad):

    Rod Small End Widths:

    B18C1, B18C5 17.9 mm (0.705 in.)
    B16A, B17A 18.0 mm (0.710 in.)
    B18B 19.9 mm (0.785 in.)
    B20A 23.7 mm (0.935 in.) "


    Anyone else heard or experienced this?

    It's sounding like I'm going to have to source a complete rotating assembly from a B16b from Japan or in importer here in the states.
     
  18. phunky.buddha

    phunky.buddha Admin with a big stick Admin VIP

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    Hmm. I didn't know that. You'll have to source B16B specific length rods anyway, so you'd have to get them custom made or use the OEM rods. Instead of going through the expense of looking for a set of OEM B16B rods, I would recommend just getting a set of forged rods and pistons made for you.
     
  19. bwaynep

    bwaynep Drives Like Gramps...

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    Sounds like $$$ to me, though I knew this build wouldn't be as inexpensive as my D16. I'll have to make some sort of justification to the wife about custom pistons and rods... maybe I can tell here it's a "lab materials fee" for the class

    I'll see about my options for rods and pistons in the aftermarket then. I'm not too sure that I want to go turbo/supercharged but if I'm going forged it might be something to have a boosted motor with that high of a RS ratio. 9000rpms with 5-6lbs of boost, hmmm...
     
  20. bwaynep

    bwaynep Drives Like Gramps...

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    <--- joking about budget... I suppose tone is hard to put into text so I'll try to be clearer from now on.

    As for the Greddy or Edelbrock kits they are not legal for a 1990 Civic Si with a D16A6 (unless I misread the PDF that was posted on the ARB site). Good thought though, I've thought about just going with a z6 or y8 swap, referee and turbo but I'm thinking that with the money I'd spend on the rebuilding the z6 or y8 and then the money spent on the turbo I could spend a little more and have what I actually want in the car.
     
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