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Ice racing / Rally EK with B16 looking for reliable turbo setup

Discussion in 'Forced Induction' started by ITSWILL, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. ITSWILL

    ITSWILL Member

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    I am in need of more low to mid range power as when my car gets into deep snow or mud the engine will bog down and Vtec become worthless. Additionally, when racing I am running between 7000 rpm and redline constantly for extended periods of time and would like to make some more power a say around 5000 rpm to lower the revs a bit.

    Currently I have many left overs from my 2nd gen RX7 13BT engines.

    So I have a decent RX7 turbo with integrated wastegate, intercooler, bov, 550cc or 460cc injectors, charge piping, exhaust piping extra oil feed lines and a lot of other tidbits.

    At the moment I would like to run 5 to 7 psi and I need it to be super reliable as this will be taking a pounding and cannot quit in the middle of an all day race.

    So I am considering a cast iron turbo manifold for durability. It seems that a cast manifold can be had for under $100. There are a few different designs out there with different wastegate placement ( I would just block this off) and different turbo orientation features as well as different flanges ( I would either cut the flange off and weld another one one or make an adapter since the RX7 flange is an oddball). Can anyone recommend a cast manifold from experience?

    The other part of this that I don't yet have covered is the ECU. I could run a full standalone but in my experience I have found OE ECUs to be more reliable. So any recommendations here?

    Will I need to convert to OBD1 to run a hondata or rechip and run Chrome?

    Also a few other questions. Where is a good place to pick up the oil supply? Is there a place I can drill and tap the block? Similarly where is a good place to pick up and return coolant to and from the turbo?

    Any other tips would be appreciated, keep in mind my goal is to level out the power band and my number one priority is reliability.

    Thanks
    Will
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
  2. ITSWILL

    ITSWILL Member

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    Some pics form this weekend.

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    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
  3. Briansol

    Briansol Admins Admin VIP

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    rx7 injectors won't work. if you want to go cheap, DSM eclipse 450cc blue tops are almost a direct drop in. There's a bunch of how-tos to port the rail a mm or 2 to make them fit. Can find these for like $50 these days.

    most roms are obd1 only. so, yes, you'll want to grab a socketed p28 w/ conversion harness, an ostrich or other RT programer, a chip burner, etc if you're going to do it your self. both crome and s200 hondata require the same socket and ecu work. ready p28s can be had for around 100 bucks.
    moates.net has all this stuff pretty cheap if you want to to it yourself.

    tuned properly, there's no reason why you can't run 10 lbs safely on the stock block from that dinky turbo. hit up the dyno with the wideband once you get it going, and its worth it to spend a few bucks with someone who knows what they are doing.

    oil supply, i like the sandwhich filter adapters.
    GEM Oil Sandwich Plate (Filter Adapter) with 1/4 adapter [Honda/Acura] : Golden Eagle Manufacturing
    note, there's a few of these with different ports/sizes. I'd call to see what would work best as i don't have time right now to look through them all. you want to run a -3an feed line, -10an return line to the pan... which leads us to the tapped oil pan.
    There's some all in one kits out there like the ones F-T sells
    Fast-Turbo.com

    water lines- generally, just block them off. they aren't really needed and are a pita to hook up. it's more of a cool-down thing. Idle your car down before shutting it off for 30 secs to a min and you'll have no issues with the turbo seizing up most likely. tapping a radiator feed and return is messy. Frankly, the hoses are probably more valuable than the old turbo is anyway. heh

    hope this helps you get started.
     
  4. ITSWILL

    ITSWILL Member

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    First off, thanks for the response

    Why exactly won't the RX7 injectors work? Impedance? Physical dimension? I seem to be seeing quite a few posts where they are being used in a Hondas? Anyway I have fuel rail stock, injector resistor packs and welder if I need to make my own or modify the impedance. Unless there is something I am overlooking here.

    I have no problem with soldering a socket into an ECU, so that's not really a big deal. Also I have all the plugs and pins to make my own OBD1 to OBD2 adapter for free. So if I understand this, I buy the used ECU the socket the chip and the burner, download the software and make my adapter harness and I am ready to roll?

    That sandwich plate is wicked over priced $100, that's crazy. I'm pretty sure I can find another oil source.

    Also, is there any reason why I would need to block any of the coolant lines off if there is no coolant going into it?


    My major concerns are the ECU and the turbo manifold right now.

    If I get an emulator on top of the regular chipping procedure this would allow me to do realtime tuning and data logging as well as have extra outputs correct? Is it worth it to go this route or should I just buy a Hondata s300? Also, how reliable are these setups in comparison?

    Any word on cast turbo manifolds?

    Thanks for the feedback.
     
  5. Briansol

    Briansol Admins Admin VIP

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    I may be mistaken on the injectors. I remember something about them being side feed or something like that. it's been a while.

    Finding a 'virgin' p28 will honestly probably cost you more than finding one thats already socketed.
    You'll want both a real-time programer (during tuning) and a chip burner (when you're done, to keep in the car). Or, you can keep the real-time in the car full time. They run on watch batteries so they will die one day, but will last a while. It's another thing to stuff somewhere though. burning a new chip every dyno pull is expensive too, not to mention time consuming.
    data logging is a separate hook up/pin malarky.

    the s300 is a great system. buts its significantly more expensive than the free crome. Basically, you still need almost everything you need with crome that you do with hondata, plus the hondata price. or, your tuner has it and can set you up and you go home with just the end product chip.

    I've tuned cars with both crome, turbo edit, hondata s200, megasquirt, and I honestly can't say one did a better job than the other. Sure, the paid options are cleaner and smoother and the ui is better, but the tune is still just as capable in 99% of situations. Especailly for a 'jnkyard' style set up.

    cast mani is fine. They don't offer the best spooling, but with such a tiny turbo, it won't really matter.

    Yes, the sandwhich filter is a bit pricey, but honestly its the best way to do it. I'm sure theres some knock offs on ebay/etc. Or, you can use the bspt port on the back of the block, but I never cared for these... and in a bumpy race situation, it has failure point written all over it.
    http://hondaswap.com/forced-induction/thread-size-61654/#post575122 has info on the adapter fitting, and then you can run that out to the npt to -3 an hook up.

    bunch more info on the site with a search too
    https://www.google.com/search?q=tap...73,d.dmQ&fp=f85e41ca9b8e7046&biw=1787&bih=755

    You'd want to block off the ports so that junk doesn't get inside the bearings of the turbo. If you really want to run lines, there's some fittings now from Full race
    Honda B-Series Engine Block Coolant Adapter - Full-Race.com
     
  6. ITSWILL

    ITSWILL Member

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    Yeah, newer rx7 injectors are side feed or at least my 20B was until I converted it.

    Good tips on the ECU. I think I am going to hold off on that until I am ready to get it tuned. At that point I will talk to some tuners and see what they can offer me.

    I will take a look at the sandwich adapters on ebay or make my own maybe. Thanks for the advice.

    Also good point on not wanting crap to get in the coolant passages, I'm honestly thinking I will run the coolant lines though, maybe tap off of the system after the throttle body if there are lines there.

    Thanks
    Will
     
  7. TurboMirage

    TurboMirage YEEAAAHHH VIP

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    having done the snow/ice thing before, why not do some headwork and add cams instead of a turbo? i did just fine in snow and mud up to my rockers with a set of skinny tall snows. with 92hp i never had any bogging or got stuck and i placed relatively well even against guys with studs or AWD cars. on the other hand, my car made power at 3k up until redline :)

    much less work and maintenance overall. plus you wont risk damaging your intercooler/piping if you get into a little rubbing or into snow thats a bit too deep.
     
  8. ITSWILL

    ITSWILL Member

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    Most headwork and cams is just going to shift the power curve more to the high end. And if there is some setup that makes more low end, it will lose high end which is not favorable.

    For what I am doing head and cam would probably be a good upgrade for an LS B18 or B20 but I don't think so much for a B16.
     
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