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new to engine building need help

Discussion in 'Engine Building' started by laoboisosilly, Dec 17, 2006.

  1. laoboisosilly

    laoboisosilly Slammed EJ2 y0

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    im about to rebuild my b16a2 and i was wondering what do i have to do to install aftermarket pistons and rods? do i have to do some special machining or can i just install it by the helms manual and plastigage everything? :huh:
     
  2. laoboisosilly

    laoboisosilly Slammed EJ2 y0

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    nah im not planning on overboring but might do a light hone, im just planning on replacing all the main and rod bearings and figured while im down there mind as well replace the stock rods and pistons with stronger ones
     
  3. laoboisosilly

    laoboisosilly Slammed EJ2 y0

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    thanks, +rep for you ^_^
     
  4. hondasniper

    hondasniper Engine Builder

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    Make sure if you get forged pistons, to sleeve your block. A basic replacement sleeve is fine (generally $100-130 for the sleeves and $125-150 for the install. It all depends on the machine shop). Good luck!
     
  5. laoboisosilly

    laoboisosilly Slammed EJ2 y0

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    where can i find replacement sleeves, honda? is it actually mandatory to resleeve to the block to use forged internals? or can i use stock sleeves and everything will be fine?
     
  6. laoboisosilly

    laoboisosilly Slammed EJ2 y0

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  7. hondasniper

    hondasniper Engine Builder

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    NONONO. You can run the forged pistons, but it wont last. You need iron sleeves to run forged pistons. You can run cast aluminum pistons on stock sleeves and iron sleeves, but it doesn't work the other way around. You can listen to him if you want, but you'll just end up like the other people we had to rebuild their motors cuz they ran forged pistons on stock sleeves.
     
  8. hondasniper

    hondasniper Engine Builder

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    your machine shop should be able to get some sleeves for you.
     
  9. laoboisosilly

    laoboisosilly Slammed EJ2 y0

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    where can i find iron sleeves for the cheap? the only iron sleeves i know of is the ones that darton, aebs, golden eagle, and benson makes,and those are hella expensive haha, i duno of any other
     
  10. hcivic.com

    hcivic.com Senior Member

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    what the fuck are you talking about.
    ]Ignore the fuck head. Just remeber depending on the tyle of piston and rod you may needs a shop to press the wrist pins in for you. Also enshure the pistons and rods come balanced
     
  11. laoboisosilly

    laoboisosilly Slammed EJ2 y0

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    kool beanz, ill see how everything goes when i start the rebuild in a month or two hahaha but thx for the help yall
     
  12. turb2o_vtec

    turb2o_vtec New Member

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    No need for sleeve. Forge piston and rods is good enough. Not a bad idea to sleeve if you got the money. But not recommand.
     
  13. hondasniper

    hondasniper Engine Builder

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    Ok. I only work on fuckin motors that run 7 in a quarter all day and flatline the dyno at 1100hp. I'll get you the exact details tomorrow why you shouldn't.
     
  14. hondasniper

    hondasniper Engine Builder

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    look what buh_buh has to say in the middle of this thread. I'll find out tomorrow who you can get some sleeves from. I believe we get ours from either liberty or race engineering. I'll get back to you on that.

    forums.beyond.ca/showthread/t-60447.html
     
  15. hondasniper

    hondasniper Engine Builder

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    Ok. The stock sleeves are coated Nickel Ceramic type of material. Half of the problem is that the pistons can hurt the coating and the rings are the other half of the problem. I've heard that weisco makes some pistons and rings that can go with the stock sleeves that won't hurt the coating. Give them a call. I'm sure that they'll be more than happy to help you. BTW, these are the people that I work with. I helped build the motor in the white camaro with the 2 red stripes. There are a couple of more outlaws that I help and others that aren't outlaws as well.

    Quick 8 Outlaws : The World's Fastest Automatics! : Photo Gallery

    Here's our car

    http://www.raceworksgallery.com/2006/rock/fall-civilwars/sat/img_4219.htm
    http://www.raceworksgallery.com/2006/rock/fall-civilwars/sun/_g2l8229.htm
    http://www.raceworksgallery.com/2006/rock/fall-civilwars/sun/_g2l8230.htm
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2006
  16. Exodus

    Exodus Junior Member

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    I'm basically certain that you do not need to have the block sleeved to use forged internals.

    I would recommend that you either get the crank balanced (with the stock damper on), or get the crank balanced and get a Fluidampr (if you choose the latter, naturally it would be balanced with the Fluidampr on). Forged internals are generally weighted well, but the crank will need to be neutral balanced to avoid any problems (like premature bearing wear). The crank is balanced from the factory with a stock flywheel, damper, rods and pistons. It assumes those are there to remain in good balance, if you change one thing, you need to make sure everything else is working TOGETHER and not against each other. You'll also want a lightweight flywheel and a clutch\pressure plate upgrade (recommend Clutch Masters products) as this will keep all of the rotating components balanced (provided you know that the new flywheel is balanced, some cheaper companies sell unbalanced pieces).

    Select bearings in the middle of Honda's color chart.

    Use Total Seal piston rings.

    Use a Cometic head gasket as well.

    If you are choosing forced induction at a later date, piston selection and head gasket thickness selection are important NOW.

    You should also have a machine shop check the flatness of the deck surfaces of the block and head. Find out if you are warped disassembled, not at 8,000rpms. If you have the mating surfaces milled for any reason, take at least the amount removed from the head off of the alignment dowels, otherwise, they'll lift the head up creating an improper seal with the head gasket.

    I don't think you are going to walk away from this rebuild "stock". I don't believe you can just have a fresh overhaul, and oh, my rods and pistons are stronger too! You may one to consider two things:

    - Fresh OE rebuild. Happy stock engine! Save your money for the building of it, get all of your parts at once and have it machined\assembled and ready to go many miles without being broke apart again.

    - Build halfway now (with rods and pistons), and one day tear it back down to finish what you started (more expensive\time consuming).

    Look at everything you do to your car as a job. When you do a job, on a car, generally (not always), the best rule to follow is finish what you start before you fire the engine. I wouldn't put a new set of coilovers on my car without buying a camber kit, would you? Why rape the tires? Cause you want to be slammed NOW NOW NOW? That type of impatience and immaturity can cost you thousands, as it does to thousands of now disillusioned former car enthusiasts who dump thousands into their ride and due to oversights, lose everything and go back to driving stuff like beat Cavaliers and never do more than put gas in it because they think working on their car is a waste.

    Think about this, the engineers at Honda, they are smarter than you. And me. And everyone else who tinkers with their engines. They PROBABLY know some things we don't, and probably don't tell us those things because they are part of a business in a competitive market. Yeah, it sucks when they can't tell us their secrets, like those about the B20, whom everyone thinks is worthless because of the weak sleeves (popular idiocy, and yes, I'm aware a handful of tuners out the are more well informed about this engine than most), or the intricacies of the A6 and the care in design and production that went into it.

    Shit, I don't even know all about that stuff. I'm still young and learning. But what I do know, is that I DON'T know. And neither do you, or anyone else that posts here, or lives outside of the walls of current mechanical engineering. The best thing to do when building an engine is let someone else do it, that knows what they are doing if you don't. It's great to learn by failing, it's called experience, but it shouldn't be at the expense of your finances. If you are this interested, go to school and learn on free engines that you can break all day for free from teachers whom you pay to spill their knowledge in tasty little digestible bite-sized easy to understand trinkets that fit into your unknowing brain. We all like to think we are smart, but we're all stupid. There's no such thing as smart, just less stupid than before.

    Figure out what you want out of "your" engine, be it this B16, or whatever your goal engine becomes, but figure that out first before you play with it, it's less costly, less time consuming, less stressful and most importantly, the most enjoyable way. I watch as other enthusiasts lick their chops when new parts come in the mail and they install each one, one at a time. It's better to modify a system (suspension system, engine system, brake system, etc..) AS a system. Aside from the benefits of saved time money and energy, the increase in performance from start to finish is far greater when a small room of parts disappears onto your car then when you do it one by one. I know everyone loves to think they can really "FEEL" that strut bar when it's the first, and I mean FIRST mod their new car is getting, but that's just the anticipation fooling yourself, denying you of the heart break when your sub concious understands that you can't realize the full potential of minimal parts additions, and knows that you don't know that, but would think you just wasted your money, if you didn't "FEEL" the difference.

    It's just cars and working on them people, this is way too easy of a thing to do with your time and money to be fretting over it so much.
     
  17. hondasniper

    hondasniper Engine Builder

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    Well if that's the case, then my bad. I was told by someone that comes into the shop that they had the same style sleeves. I read a while ago that you could run forged internals, but this guy insisted that you couldn't. I was going to just put forged internals into my b16 with a block guard, but I bought the darton sleeves since I was convinced that the blocks had the same style sleeves. Well, I changed my mind from all motor to full boost so I'll need them anywayz. I learned something new today.

    BTW exodus...good point. I'm doing the exact same thing. buying all my parts first before I do the build. Patience is key. My friend who is the master at this who went to school for all the metals tech and machine tool...etc is the one who is going to be standing over my shoulder to make sure that I do everything right, from the tight tolerances, to the fine tuning. He has already shown me a lot. Its gonna be fun to run some high boost...the right way...the first time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2006
  18. hondasniper

    hondasniper Engine Builder

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    Yea man. Go for it. The b16 has cast iron sleeves already. I'm doing tons of homework tonight. Stuffing my face in bunch of books :). Thanks Blanco for slapping some sense into me. :-D
     
  19. Exodus

    Exodus Junior Member

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    Read ENDYN's website thoroughly prior to your build. There is SO MUCH to learn there.
     
  20. laoboisosilly

    laoboisosilly Slammed EJ2 y0

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    whoaaaa :eek: hahaha, good stuff up there, but out of curiosity, how power can i squeeze out of a bone stock, all oem parts and internals, b16a2? :huh:
     
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