Which Block To Pick

[K2e2vin]

i am planning on building a high-rpm motor (+9000rpm, most likely around 11,000rpm). i need to know which block is better. the displacement i want is 2L or 1.8L. so far i have come up with using b18c5 longblock with custom cranks and rods (1.8L), b20a5 shortblock with b16a head with custom or b17 cranks and custom rods (2.0L), or a b16a head on a dart b20 tall block with b18c cranks(2.0L). which one do yall think would be better? all the engines would of course have upgraded valvetrains and all that and will be turbo. i specifically want to race sr20det powered cars and some v8s. any help appreciated(spl?)

 

[kyleirwin]

uh... you're a kook. a b18c5 is a 1.8L stock... what's up with the custom crank (...not cranks) and rods y0? IMO the b18c-r is the best building block for a honda engine if you have the $$$. if you want to build the bottom to hold more revs, atleast upgrade your rods and have your rotating assembly balanced... and possibly buy a aftermarket forged crank... like one from crower. if you want more displacement... just sleeve and bore a b18 series block to 84mm makin' it a 2.0L (roughly). but if you're gonna upgrade crank and rods... then just should just buy a stroker kit as it won't be much more $$$ since you're already buyin' all the shit anyways... plus you'll get some more displacement.

 

[pills_PMD]

if you want to spin to 11k ... you'd better look into r/s ratio and INSANE cams if you want to make power that high.

 

[K2e2vin]

the b18c needs a custom crank and rods b/c r/s ratio has been looked into and to get a good r/s ratio i need to have a smaller stroke for the deck height of the b18c. this means the b18c would have a displacement of 1.6L (with the crakn i plan to use) so the engine would be bored to 84mm.

the engines would be resleeved with aebs t-sleeves or some other.

with the b18's current r/s ratio i am thinking there might be too much force on the cylinder walls, which may cause it to become more oval than round. remember i want to rev this engine very high.

the engine has custom crank to get the best r/s ratio (currently im using 1.75, but some would say 1.77 or higher would be better for very high rpm.)

a stroker kit decreases your r/s ratio. i dont really want a very high displacement.

the question is which would be the best combination to use?

 

[Domeskilla]

Want higher rpms? Go with a b16 crank. It will destroke it, making it run higher rpm's for an extended time. Hence nascar runs 9k all day with destrokied engines (chevy's use 377 destrokes)

 

[machine]

Dart makes a B18 as well now.....

 

[K2e2vin]

yeah i thought about it but i want displacement around 1.8L-2.0L. the b16 crank with a 84mm bore is only 1.7L.

f1 cars run 17,000rpm all day, nascar is nothing compared to f1.
speaking of destroked engines one tuning shop, i forgot the name, has destroked h22s (2.0L) that can push out 300hp NA all day!

 

[VtSol]

I agree with Kyle! You are a nuts! j/k Why would you wanna rev that high in the first place? Built right, you'll get the Hp you need at about 8500-9000 RPMs anyway. And it won't really matter what block you are using if you're gonna build it from the ground up...A B16 head won't fit on B20a5 block. You never mentioned the vehicle this engine is going into either. Power to weigh ratios have to be taken into account for racing purposes...If you're looking for good engine geometry right out of the box, a GSR block is your best bet. It's the same casting as a Type R. No need to get the R block if you're gonna change the guts out right? Why waste extra money if you're taking the "R" out of it? If you're going to build this motor for turbo, you won't need to reach those revs to make the power you need to beat SR20s or V8s anyway. Aim for a good combination of parts to "make power" not to rev to certain RPMs. It sounds good to be able to say "My engine can rev up to 10K RPMs", but it's just an empty statement if you don't make power at those RPM levels. Besides, "pump gas", 91 0r 92 octane, doesn't ignite propperly at those RPMs. Do a bit more research. You'll be surprised at the power levels achieved on turboed B-series engines with upgraded internals of the same geometry, not custom. Peace.

 

[K2e2vin]

the engine and car i have right now is a b16a and a civic coupe, and i am about to get a honda integra type-r or just the american version.

i want to be able to get good power through a large rpm band. the best replacement for displacement is revs. i am confident that the engine would make more power at higher rpm than stock or around just 9000. I dont know if you noticed but many tuners increase rpm to get more power.

the gsr is similar to the type-r and does have good geometry but not for VERY high rpm.

I am going to run octane 107 or 105 (i forgot which one) in it. its around $5 a gallon. but i am not going to be reving that high all the time. its part daily driven. i thought about the type-r engine b/c is has features that other engines dont have, like oil coolers, girdle, oil squirters, etc. and i like the type-r gear ratios and want to get a jdm front integra, so itll be much easier to buy the type-r than get a usdm integra gsr and get the front converted, and add stuff to the engine that is standard on the type-r.

from what i understand a greater power to weight ratio is better.

I am going to need all the power to beat people in this town, mostly turboed rx-7, turbo 240sx with sr20s, and the biggest is them damn supercharged corvettes and turbo nsx's.

power levels ive seen in b-series (b18) with stock geometry uses methanol, breaks down every 5 races, has a redline of around 9500(b/c of its geometry), and is running +40psi. the f20c would be an easier engine to push that high with stock geometry, but i dont want an s2000 b/c i wanna be able to carry more than one passenger.

since the b16a head doesnt fit on the b20a5, then thats out of the question.

thanks for the feedback though.

 

[machine]

Originally posted by K2e2vin@Mar 29 2003, 10:31 PM


I am going to need all the power to beat people in this town, mostly turboed rx-7, turbo 240sx with sr20s, and the biggest is them damn supercharged corvettes and turbo nsx's.

dude not saying it can't be done, but i think the amount of money for some of this might be outrageous. I know when I am beat. I'm not gonna go up against a blown vette, just to get spanked. More than likely thats a foregone conclusion. But if you are dead set, best of luck to you!

 

[TRuggiero_]

A B16A head will fit a B20(B/Z).
A good friend of mine has a built B16A in his 5th gen, it would take a few pages to list all of his modifications most of which he doesn't share. But anyway he gets up to 10,800 and still makes power. The only reason that he even goes up that high is cause he still makes power. If you can't make that power up there then your just the guy in the honda who forgot to shift.
By the way, I say CRVTEC.

 

[K2e2vin]

thanks machine.

i know i could do the b20vtec, or i could just rebore the b18c. if I go with the b20 with the b16a head, i would probally use the dart tall deck b20 so i could use the b18c crank. this is what i am asking, would it be better to use the b18c with 84mm but stock displacement b/c of crank or use the b20 tall deck with b18 crank with 2L? my main concern is weight. truggierro_ can you tell me what crank he is using? i am scared to rev an engine with the b20b or b18c crank that high b/c i hear lots of stories where they rev their engines higher b/c it makes power then it dies. one that sticks out to me is Endyne's b20 that died when they reved it to 10000rpm to get 300hp.

 

[phunky.buddha]

Endyn, not endyne. The block they used was a stock sleeve block I believe... it died at 10k, not a resleeved one. If you're going to use the DART tall deck block, bore it out to 85mm or 86mm, then use the LS or B20 crank in it with some 156mm custom rods (2.0L). You could also use the B20A crank with 166mm rods (2.2L with 86mm bore). Both will give you 1.75 R/S ratio, provided that the deck is tall enough. Slap on a heavily worked B16 head and you'll be ready to rev/breathe up past 10k rpm.

 

[K2e2vin]

Thanks. But wouldnt the displacement already be 2.0L if i use the b20 crank? I am planning on getting the b20 tall deck block. I just worked out the r/s ratio for the b20 crank and it turns out to be 1.88. So I guess ill go ahead with the dart block and b20 crank.

 

[phunky.buddha]

Originally posted by K2e2vin@Mar 31 2003, 02:29 PM
Thanks. But wouldnt the displacement already be 2.0L if i use the b20 crank? I am planning on getting the b20 tall deck block. I just worked out the r/s ratio for the b20 crank and it turns out to be 1.88. So I guess ill go ahead with the dart block and b20 crank.

B20B/Z displacement is 1973cc. Punch out to an 84.5mm bore, and you get 1997cc. An 85mm bore will get 2020cc. More information on this is in our articles area under "displacements" or something like that.

What rods are you planning to use to get your 1.88 ratio?

 

[K2e2vin]

Ok i see.

B20b crank in Dart b20 tall deck gives you a r/s ratio of 1.88, which also requires custom 167.5mm rods.

 

[phunky.buddha]

Originally posted by K2e2vin@Mar 31 2003, 07:28 PM
Ok i see.

B20b crank in Dart b20 tall deck gives you a r/s ratio of 1.88, which also requires custom 167.5mm rods.

Why do you want 1.88? I'm just curious. I was talking about a B20A crank, not a B20B crank. The B20A crank with 166mm rods will get you a R/S of 1.747.

 

[K2e2vin]

oh yeah i noticed that. my first pick was the b20b crank but then i was looking at the b20a. so yeah i noticed that also.