Low Budget Civic Swap

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Originally posted by Domeskilla@Feb 9 2003, 07:36 AM
A stock sir 2 has 116tq and a mini-me will produce around 110 or so, the d-series block is lighter.. so it equals out. The d15 has a better r/s ratio then the b16 and so in the end, after bolt ons, the mini-me will own a stock to nearly stock b16.

You own a VX, not even a 100 hp. Sure, to 99.9% of the ppl a d-series blows, but i'll have a bad ass d-series that will hold its own when said and done. No, i wont be the fastest, but you never are the fast. Someone is ALWAYS faster than you.

What is the R/S ratio on the D15?the perfect R/S is 1.75:1 and the B16 has 1.74:1.The mini me's torque is going to depend on the build,it isn't a definite number.And I seriously have doubts that a mini me,unless built very well is going to own a stock B16,maybe in a 99-00 si,yea,but in a hatch?I own a vx car,but that motor had to go.And to tell you the truth,if the only motor I could have gotten was a D16Z6,I would have used it because the D15Z1 sucked ass :D .
Ok endless questions from a honda newbie. I will need an hf manifold? As I am a do it myself kind of guy. What exactly is this and from what car do I rob it. Also Hondata???? Never heard of it. I have a datalogger and a genysis but neither of theese can flash honda prom. For boost, stock injectors?? Bigger fuel pump or will all this tiny cx stuff support boost. From my research the r/s and c/r with the mini me setup about 6-8 lbs of boost would be optimum. Also will I need check valves for any sensors because most map and baro sensors dont like to see boost so I usually keep them from seeing it and just run a 5th injector on a switch that turns on when it sees boost. To keep things rich and keep detonation down. I really appriciate all the help guys keep the info commiong.
Hondata is a really good aftermarket EMS manufacter.You swipe a HF intake manifold off a HF haha,sorry.HF is a model like si,vx,cx.Depending on how much boost you use,the stock injectors may work,but it would be a good idea to upgrade a bit.The EMS you use should help your MAP see boost in a different,more friendly,light.Fuel pump I'd upgrade why not better safe than sorry.
I'm building a D16Z for my tired VX. I was talking more to the reliability of the Honda motors. After cam, I/H/E, and port matching, I'm hoping to have 150-155 at the flywheel.

I'm building it to auto-x in the Street Prepared class. The custom headers are going to be a tri-Y, 4-2-1 design with long primaries 1 3/4" stepping up to 2" at the CAT. If anyone knows a better way to tune a header for torque, please let me know.

I wanted to stay with a lighter engine so as to not induce anymore understeer. Everyone was telling me to swap so I was happy to find some well informed folks loyal to the SOHC camp to help. Unfortunately, it seems they all want to go straight. I'm still looking for some good ideas on balancing the suspension.

I already have a set of Eibach springs and a strut bar but can't decide what shocks to put on or the best way to stiffen the rear for some oversteer than is non-existant at present.
I added strut bars to one of my dsm's and i found little if any results. So I talked to a guy in columbus who described the problem and here it is. When Installing strut tower braces let's face it most people do it for looks which is fine, but for real results just like any other mod there are tricks to it. He told me to jack the car up so the wheels are off the ground and allowed to sag (like in the center of the car not on the sides) using one jack right in the center. When i did this and unbolted my braces I actually saw the towers flex. Then tighten the bolts back down this really stiffened things up for me. Of course you need a real strut tower brace not one just made for looks i.e good ones have slotted holes and an adjustable cross bar as well. hope this helps.
Originally posted by fuse77@Feb 11 2003, 03:25 AM
Of course you need a real strut tower brace not one just made for looks i.e good ones have slotted holes and an adjustable cross bar as well. hope this helps.

So the stock Honda ones aren't real <_<
I haven't seen a stock strut tower bar on a Civic??? :huh:

I have a "real" bar that's adjustible. I never knew how to adjust/tune it. I set up a slalom course and did 3 passes before and after I added it. I think I convinced myself there was a dif so that I could justify the time (5 min) and expense ($50) of adding it.

I'll try your friend's trick and run the slalom again. It isn't very scientific but, hey, it sure is fun!! :D

Has anyone ever tried running their front springs on the rear and vice versa? The perches look the same size. I'm sure the front Eibach springs a higher spring rate than the rear. I was thinking of trying but it is a monster pain the whoo-hoo if it doesn't work to put it all back

Thanks again!!
The 99-00 Si comes with stock strut braces and tie bars... so does the last generation GSR and ITR.

I personally don't like adjustable braces- it's just one more flex point that you're introducing to your "stiffened" chassis. The bars you buy should already be sized to your application, and solid non-adjustable units are usually going to be the strongest and stiffest you can get for your car. Most of the cheap adjustable bars (yes $50 is cheap for a brace) are adjustable so the manufacturers can use the same bar across different applications by just swapping out the mounts- think about it.
Well, that explains it. I haven't seen under the hood of a new Civic Si as of yet. Thanks!

$50 was the Ebay price for the tower bar. I agree its not the best one but its better than some I've seen on cars at NOPI Nationals, etc, on trailer queens. I don't understand how there can be any flex at the adjustment point anymore than there is flex in adjustible perch mounts or any other threaded connection.

Anyway, it definately doesn't hurt the performance so I'm leaving it on as it will likely be the only susp mod on the front (do rims count?).

thanks for the suggestion
Rims somewhat count as a suspension modification... now whether or not they're helping or hurting your performance is another matter.

The 99-00 Si had the strut braces from the factory.

The adjustment points I'm talking about are the ones that are on pivots- most of the cheaper bars use a threaded bar mounted on pivoting brackets- those only constrain one degree of movement, and that's the distance between the tops of your shock towers. Forward/backwards movement of the tower tops is not constrained, and neither is up/down movement relative to each other. Strut/tie braces with pivot points are basically... useless. They look nice though, so that's why you see them on show cars- they really don't add much to performance. I had one on my Civic, and didn't really feel a difference. Once I replaced it with a Neuspeed bar (totally rigid) I could really tell that something changed.

Look into getting a totally rigid brace- if it's adjustable that's ok- just make sure that there are no pivots. You might check Neuspeed's site- their bars are cheaper than you might think. If you're willing to pay $50 on eBay plus shipping, I'm sure you'd be willing to pay $90 shipped for a much better quality brace.
I'm going with VX rims. Not only are they 13" (better gearing ratio) they only weigh 7 1/2 pounds each!

I've seen the braces you're talking about. They mount at 4 points, right? In order to stay in the ST class I have to mount the tower bar to "...only transversely across the car from upper right to upper left suspension mounting point and from lower right to lower left suspension mounting point." I can drill holes to mount them. IYO, will the Neuspeed bar mount within that parameter?

Also, whadda know about Koni vs KBX (??) vs Tokico shocks for tightening the rear? Is a daily driver so I'm gonna need adjustible shocks or have my fillings replaced every 5,000 miles with my oil.
The VX rims only help you on overall gear ratio if you're using a different diameter tire. The rim size doesn't matter- it's the overall rolling circumference of the tire that makes the difference.

You have a 92, right? The Neuspeed bar for 92-95 Civics mounts at the upper control arm bolts. I don't know if that passes your regulations or not. It's still a 4 point brace, but the anchor points are still relatively close to each other.
Adjustable shocks are nice- spend the slight bit of extra cash to be able to tune your damping level... it's worth it. I have KYB AGXs on my car with the Pro-Kits and I love them.
The rims are sitting in my shop while I research tires. The first SCCA event is in two weeks and I'm hoping to get some data at that time and maybe find a deal. I've been told to look for 205/45/13 or 205/55/13 (now I can't remember :angry:). Stock is 155/70/13.

With those mount points they'll work. Found a set at neuspeed.com for $59. Polished is more but I'm not planning on racing w/ my hood up. I want to add speed, not looks (VX rims for gosh sakes!!!!) and don't care how anything looks as long as it builds speed.

A lot of folks are in love w/ Koni Yellows but they are outside my budget. Where did you get your AGXs?
Damn only $59? The price has come down some in the last 6 months... I bought mine black as well- I didn't see the need to pay an extra $10 for a polished bar.

If your stock size was 155/70/13, then your stock diameter was 547.2mm. Match your original diameter to maintain your gearing:

185/55/13 = 533.7mm
185/60/13 = 552.2mm
195/55/13 = 544.7mm
205/50/13 = 535.2mm
205/55/13 = 555.7mm

205/45/13 is a little short at 514.7mm. Of course, all these sizes are theoretical- I don't even know if they're made, and if they'll fit your rim width if they are made.

If you swap out to a 5G D16 SOHC VTEC block and transmission, your stock tire size is 185/60/14 with a diameter of 577.6mm. You'll want to run:

175/70/13 = 575.2mm
185/65/13 = 570.7mm
195/60/13 = 564.2mm
195/65/13 = 583.7mm
205/60/13 = 576.2mm

Of course, you could also run HX rims at 14" and use 185/60/14 or 205/55/14 (581.1mm) tires... I know they make those. I think the HX rims only weigh 9 pounds.

I got my AGXs at Cox Imports- $340 shipped, although they're probably cheaper by now. You might want to check with our sponsor here, ALLJDM.com.