damnit, bush is still alive

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by Battle Pope@May 11 2005, 10:18 PM
Basically, through time, the current American government has turned away from almost everything previous governments have strived to give the people. There's no freedom anymore.

The nail that sticks out is the first to be hammered down.

[post=497998]Quoted post[/post]​

But there are. You are enjoying one right now. People really do take the freedoms we have for granted. Trust me, in my world travels I have seen that America is FAR from unfree.


Ever heard the band Born Against, they have a song called "Nail that stick up, gets hammered down", great song.

 

[DarkHand]

Originally posted by 92b16vx+May 11 2005, 03:44 PM-->

Battle Pope

@May 11 2005, 10:18 PM
Basically, through time, the current American government has turned away from almost everything previous governments have strived to give the people. There's no freedom anymore.

The nail that sticks out is the first to be hammered down.

[post=497998]Quoted post[/post]​

But there are. You are enjoying one right now. People really do take the freedoms we have for granted. Trust me, in my world travels I have seen that America is FAR from unfree.

[post=498016]Quoted post[/post]​

Absolutely, and a great point. We're still quite free; the constitution is holding up quite well. But it's creaking. We need to fight tooth and nail at every little attack on it to keep ourselves free.

 

[Celerity]

Have you actually run out of things to compare George Bush to, that you (Or I imagine someone else) began to compare him with King George III ? Did I miss something ?

King George Broke up the Whig party, who then came to America - They did all in their power to make sure no one could... Break up the Whig party again ! That may have been the Modus Operandi to draft the Declaration of Independence.

Dark: Aren't you anti-gun ? I forget.

 

[DarkHand]

Originally posted by Celerity@May 11 2005, 04:07 PM
Have you actually run out of things to compare George Bush to, that you (Or I imagine someone else) began to compare him with King George III ? Did I miss something ?

King George Broke up the Whig party, who then came to America - They did all in their power to make sure no one could... Break up the Whig party again ! That may have been the Modus Operandi to draft the Declaration of Independence.

Dark: Aren't you anti-gun ? I forget.

[post=498025]Quoted post[/post]​

Not specifically comparing him to King George, just scanning over the Declaration and noticed several consistencies with the current chain of events.

Actually I'm Pro Gun, pro assault weapons even, but am also for amazingly harsh gun-related crimes punishments. Have them, but use them damn carefully. The future revolutionists (which I think will be at the end of or just past most of our lifetimes) can't exactly take back America with 9mm's, can they.

 

[Celerity]

Good thinking.

 

[BigJ]

I'm glad he lived. Otherwise Cheney would be the man, and that would be horrible things.

 

[civicious]

Originally posted by DarkHand+May 11 2005, 04:42 PM-->

Check it out, Bush Jr. alone has commited most of the acts in the Declaration of Independence that were the reasons for our seperation:

Here they all are, I've bolded the similar ones:

The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. Not Indians this time, but Iraqis and other Middle Easterners who now hate us even more than before.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

[post=498014]Quoted post[/post]​

Ok, first of all, I am in no way saying that Bush didn't do any of the things that you listed above. However, some of those I think you're either mistaken as to what they mean, or Bush did them with cause. I know I'm gonna piss a few people off, so if you're an illegal immigrant, don't read any further.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

Yes, you're from Chicago. Don't get too many illegal immigrants in Chigago, do ya? Specifically illegal Mexicans, that show up, don't speak ANY English, work jobs ILLEGALLY for LESS than minimum wage, and because of that TAKE jobs from AMERICAN CITIZENS for the simple fact that they'll work for less than minimum wage! When you can pay some dude that lives in a single room with 15 other people who rarely ever eats (read: little or no bills) $1/hr to build a fence, why would you pay someone who NEEDS minimum wage to make it (and barely make it at that) more? I work at a sawmill. Know how many illegal immigrants work there? A LOT. Shit, at the restaurant I used to work at, 90% of the cooking staff and 2 or 3 of the waitresses were illegal! And you know what happened when immigration came through? They left. Did they get fired? Of course not, they'll work for less than minimum wage. But what they DID do is leave myself, the manager, and the other 3 'legals' to run the restaurant on our own. On a Saturday.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Mexican. My roommate is hispanic, several of my friends are, and so on. I'm not even anti-Immigrant. But if you're going to come into this country, at least do it legally. It's not that hard to get a green card. I know at LEAST 4 people off the top of my head that I work with that have them. And he Obstructed the Laws for Naturalization? How? I haven't noticed a SHORTAGE of illegals lately!

And another thing about that, how is it fair that they come here (illegally), take our jobs, and then expect US to learn THEIR language??! Much less get pissed off when we don't understand what the fuck they're saying? God knows how many times I had to argue with the cooks at Casa Ole. "No tomatoes on the salad" "Que" "They don't want tomatoes on the salad" "-insert angry gibberish here-" If I sneak into Mexico and get a job making Stratocasters for $.02/hr, and take 300 of my friends with me so that we put everyone else at the factory out of a job, and then expect everyone in Mexico to learn English because...well for no good fucking reason...would that fly? NO! And they certainly wouldn't teach English in the schools so that the children (and teachers) could fucking COMMUNICATE with the Born-In-The-USA kids who's parents are illegal and REFUSE to teach their kids English...But we do it here.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

Spoiled American. The Gestapo harassed people.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

Now, I'm not sure I understand all of these. In fact, it's hard to understand what the fuck is going on in MOST of the things you listed. Might as well have been written in gangsta. But what I'm interpreting this as (and correct me if I'm wrong), but you're saying we SHOULDN'T have a standing army in times of peace? What, do you want to just sit around and finger your prick? Sure, America hasn't been invaded recently, but that's because we've got one of the baddest-ass militaries in the world! What, did you want Bush to disband the military as soon as we captured Saddam? Send everyone home? Think about how the 'Army' was back in those days...to the best of my recollection from History class, it was mostly random guys coming and going as they pleased. Yeah, we'd be screwed.

Ooh! I know! If someone DOES happen to invade, we can send some redneck out on a horse to call everyone to arms. But wait...all you hippies want to get rid of guns, too...so if we had it your way, we would have no standing army, and the public (For the most part) wouldn't have guns. So if (and when) we DID get invaded, we'd have all the vets with sticks and pitchforks, and a couplea gangbangers with Glocks to defend our country. Good call on this one.

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

I put these together. Why? 'Them' refers to the large bodies of troops. You do remember reading in History that there were British troops here, right? And if one of the soldiers killed a citizen, then they would have a 'mock' trial, where somehow or another the soldier was found innocent? I don't believe you realized that that was referring to protecting the SOLDIERS by a mock trial, because you didn't bold 'For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us'. Way to go.

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

...and on Hondaswap.com, nevertheless. Ooh, I know. I'm gonna get in my Japanese Honda, go to Starbuck's and get a pound of the best Columbian coffee, then swing by the liquor store and buy some Tecate. After I get done drinking my coffee that I brewed on my chinese-made coffeemaker, I think I'll go to Chli's, and drink some generic imported beer (I can't think of one off the top of my head...I drink Fat Tire and Shiner).

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

I agree with this one. Taxes suck.

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

Ooh, so in the cases that the trial isn't a 'mock trial', they just deprive us alltogether of a trial! I get it! Know how many times I've been in trouble with the law? Several. Know how many times I've been deprived of a trial by jury, when necessary? None. Know how many people I know, or have even heard of, who were denied trial? None. This is just me...you're more than welcome to open my eyes to the many people who have been denied trial. And you can't count the Supreme Court cases that haven't been admitted to the S.C.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

mer·ce·nar·y adj. 1. Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.

So THAT'S where all our tax dollars are going...


I'm not going any further. You get the general idea.

pissedoffsol@May 11 2005, 09:31 PM
how come I didn't hear about it until 3 hours AFTER the event took place?

I heard about it on the radio right after the first plane hit...it was also on CNN after the first plane hit...in fact, I believe they were showing footage of the building with the crater (for lack of a better word) from the first plane WHEN the second plane hit.

 

[civicious]

Originally posted by DarkHand@May 11 2005, 05:16 PM
Not specifically comparing him to King George, just scanning over the Declaration and noticed several consistencies with the current chain of events.

Actually I'm Pro Gun, pro assault weapons even, but am also for amazingly harsh gun-related crimes punishments. Have them, but use them damn carefully. The future revolutionists (which I think will be at the end of or just past most of our lifetimes) can't exactly take back America with 9mm's, can they.

You posted that after I started typing. Bah. I thought you were anti-gun.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by civicious@May 11 2005, 11:29 PM
I think I'll go to Chli's, and drink some generic imported beer (I can't think of one off the top of my head...I drink Fat Tire and Shiner).

[post=498035]Quoted post[/post]​

You boner, those are domestic. Shiner was made in Austin, then bought by Anheser.

 

[civicious]

Originally posted by 92b16vx+May 11 2005, 05:35 PM-->

civicious

@May 11 2005, 11:29 PM
I think I'll go to Chli's, and drink some generic imported beer (I can't think of one off the top of my head...I drink Fat Tire and Shiner).

[post=498035]Quoted post[/post]​

You boner, those are domestic. Shiner was made in Austin, then bought by Anheser.

[post=498040]Quoted post[/post]​

And Fat Tire is made in, like Ohio...I know, I drink Domestic beer, which is why I can't think of an imported beer off the top of my head...you boner. I put Tecate because my roommate drinks it all the time, and I couldn't remember if you spell it 'Cervesa' or 'Cerveza' to use Cerve_a Sol....

 

[xj0hnx]

Duh, ok reread, now it makes sence, I thought you were saying those were imported, my bizad.

 

[civicious]

Damn right it's your bad.

BTW, in case everyone doesn't know, Fat Tire definitely kicks ass.

 

[dohcvtec_accord]

Meh, Fat Tire is OK. There are alot of other micros here in Colorado that are done in the same style, but infinitely better.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by civicious@May 11 2005, 11:38 PM
Damn right it's your bad.

BTW, in case everyone doesn't know, Fat Tire definitely kicks ass.

[post=498045]Quoted post[/post]​

I worked at Gumbys in Austin when it came out. We had a keg that we never put on the menu, so we drank it all

 

[DarkHand]

Originally posted by civicious+May 11 2005, 04:29 PM-->

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.
Spoiled American. The Gestapo harassed people.

Good point. I kinda pushed it with that one. I was refering to the first part, with all the new offices and commisions that recent US governments, not just Bush have created lately.

Originally posted by civicious@May 11 2005, 04:29 PM
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.
Now, I'm not sure I understand all of these.

Another abstract one. Technically we're still at peace, no war was declared except on a thing. And while he had the consent of the legislature, I'm not so sure the legislature represents the will of the people any more.

Originally posted by civicious@May 11 2005, 04:29 PM
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

I don't believe you realized that that was referring to protecting the SOLDIERS by a mock trial, because you didn't bold 'For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us'. Way to go.

I did, but it was another abstract bolding. While a few soldiers in Guantanamo have been reamed lately, I think they're just for show, and that alot of other things have been going on that they haven't been accountable for. But that's just a personal hunch, I have no evidence.

Originally posted by civicious@May 11 2005, 04:29 PM
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
...and on Hondaswap.com

Not directly, but the world view of the US has been hit pretty hard. I'm sure many nations aren't as quick to want to deal with us, even though they have to.

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
I agree with this one. Taxes suck.

Originally posted by civicious@May 11 2005, 04:29 PM
For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:Ooh, so in the cases that the trial isn't a 'mock trial', they just deprive us alltogether of a trial!

Was referring specifically to the Patriot act and how those right now CAN be legally revoked at any time, and how a number of citizens have already lost those rights due to being named terrorists.

civicious@May 11 2005, 04:29 PM
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
mer·ce·nar·y adj. 1. Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.

So THAT'S where all our tax dollars are going...

Referring to paying Afganistani soldiers to do some of the fighting for us. Not entirely the same, but once again, abstract.

 

[totalburnout]

Originally posted by pissedoffsol+May 11 2005, 04:10 PM-->

New2TheCarScene

@May 11 2005, 02:02 PM
If you can't come up with a better, more effective plan yourself, why then is it reasonable to piss, moan and complain about the system because it doesn't live up to your expectations. ... If you can't do any better then don't knock it.

[post=497964]Quoted post[/post]​

isn't that one of our ammendments?

something like "if the government fails at producing such results, a new one can be put in its place..."

[post=497993]Quoted post[/post]​

Form one and quit bitching? Its nothing but noise if you can't do anything about it.

"Those who aren't part of the solution are part of the problem."

 

[totalburnout]

Originally posted by pissedoffsol@May 11 2005, 03:31 PM


no, they want to once again, save their ass.

how come I didn't hear about it until 3 hours AFTER the event took place?

Don't we have those scrolling text test of the Emergency Broadcast such and such on the TV at 2AM tests for a fucking reason?

If we're under attack, Why wasn't I alreted about it?

why? cuz they don't care about us-- they want to get THEIR asses out and run for cover.

I understand the whole panic situation, and that it probably wasn't called for in this event... but i live less than an hour and a half from the WTC... and i didin't hear about it until i saw it on the news at the bar at work. WTF? a plane could have been to my place in less than 15 min probably...

and then #1 fell

and then #2 fell

and then the pentagon

and then the shootdown in Pa somehwere....

and still, no emergency broadcast on the TV or radio.

where was bush? reading a book to some kids....

Funny because I was attending High School about 45minutes from NYC and I knew almost instaneously. The school system alerted everyone and then we watched it in our media center soon after it happened.

...and I don't know the whole thing about losing all the antennas ontop of the WTC that broadcast many of the signals may have had an effect on communication, considering I know personally that many of the main radio stations and tv stations had their main antennas ontop of those buildings.

 

[totalburnout]

Originally posted by DarkHand@May 11 2005, 04:42 PM

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

Nope, when Bush was elected, he was elected as a representative along with all the other representatives that are supposed to speak for the general public. With that said Bush has cut taxes, I don't know what you're complaining about.


Onto the greater point at hand. You all will sit here and piss, moan, and complain that we need a more effective system of defensive, we need this, we need that yet we're all guilty for not wanting our taxes to increase. Well, how then are they going to build a more effective defense system or change anything if they don't have the funding to do so? Money makes the world go round and we as Americans want it all without having to pay a penny extra. The next time they want to increase the budget, thereby increasing your taxes, vote for the increase or don't complain with the results you get.

 

[Sabz5150]

Originally posted by New2TheCarScene+May 11 2005, 10:59 PM-->

DarkHand

@May 11 2005, 04:42 PM

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

Nope, when Bush was elected, he was elected as a representative along with all the other representatives that are supposed to speak for the general public. With that said Bush has cut taxes, I don't know what you're complaining about.


Onto the greater point at hand. You all will sit here and piss, moan, and complain that we need a more effective system of defensive, we need this, we need that yet we're all guilty for not wanting our taxes to increase. Well, how then are they going to build a more effective defense system or change anything if they don't have the funding to do so? Money makes the world go round and we as Americans want it all without having to pay a penny extra. The next time they want to increase the budget, thereby increasing your taxes, vote for the increase or don't complain with the results you get.

[post=498156]Quoted post[/post]​

You're talking about TAXES?!

I don't mind my taxes increasing. I DO mind my taxes increasing to benefit the corporations and richies.

Why don't you tell THEM to vote for the increase?!

 

[Seany-izzle]

Originally posted by New2TheCarScene+May 11 2005, 11:50 PM-->

pissedoffsol

@May 11 2005, 03:31 PM


no, they want to once again, save their ass.

how come I didn't hear about it until 3 hours AFTER the event took place?

Don't we have those scrolling text test of the Emergency Broadcast such and such on the TV at 2AM tests for a fucking reason?

If we're under attack, Why wasn't I alreted about it?

why? cuz they don't care about us--  they want to get THEIR asses out and run for cover.

I understand the whole panic situation, and that it probably wasn't called for in this event...  but i live less than an hour and a half from the WTC...  and i didin't hear about it until i saw it on the news at the bar at work.  WTF?  a plane could have been to my place in less than 15 min probably...

and then #1 fell

and then #2 fell

and then the pentagon

and then the shootdown in Pa somehwere....

and still, no emergency broadcast on the TV or radio.

where was bush?  reading a book to some kids....

Funny because I was attending High School about 45minutes from NYC and I knew almost instaneously. The school system alerted everyone and then we watched it in our media center soon after it happened.

...and I don't know the whole thing about losing all the antennas ontop of the WTC that broadcast many of the signals may have had an effect on communication, considering I know personally that many of the main radio stations and tv stations had their main antennas ontop of those buildings.

[post=498149]Quoted post[/post]​

seriously, where were you?? I heard about it as it happened, i watched the second one hit the building and i live about 3 hours from nyc. Plus i highly doubt that all your broadcasting in your area had the atennas on top of the wt buildings.

I dont particularly care for Bush all that much, but i do know that whatever he is doing, its working. People are being taken down daily, just cuz you dont hear reports doesnt mean things arent happening. And the thing with the airports, it really depends on which ones you go to. But i do know that they take many more precautions now, for instance something as simple as having your daddy order you a plane ticket, itll send a red flag and they will search you. Or switching your seats before your flight, they will take you aside and search you (both things have happened to my family, i.e. me and my father).

and to the people who bitch and say they could come up with something better, prove it or shut the fuck up....its old--get over it.