In the name of religion...

[EGProject]

Wow, face off between Sabz and Celerity....its been a while. Good read though, always is. It's one thing when stupid trolls fight, but when you get Sabz and Steve riled up, its all good fun.

*Puts on flame-retardant suit*


Continue....

 

[SSL0207]

Saddam was in power because the US put him there to fight Iran. The Taliban was in power because the US put them there to fight Communism. Al-Qaida was trained, funded, and supported by the US to fight communism as well.

How can you even start to say that the average Muslim doesn't love his neighbor unless theyare also a Muslim??? Do you know any? Do they hate you because you are not a Muslim?

The "Christian" world only got relatively "safe" within the last 50 years or so, it may not have been dangerous to ones health to not be christian, but they had other ways of harming the non-believer.

In Iran you are not harmed or judged by the state becuase you are not Muslim, the only difference is you have to pay an extra tax that goes to the poor because charitable donations are required of a Muslim.

How can you judge Muslims as a whole for the actions of the vocal and crazy Minority, there are approximately 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world, how can you pass judgement on all of them?

As for Muslim culture, there isn't one. You are confusin Arab culture with Muslim, something that many "good" Arab Muslims do. Islam crosses cultures, ethnicites, and socio-economic boudaries and Muslims (according to the Qu'ran) are supposed to respect all regardless of any of those boundaries.

And on "good" translations, ask your local Mosque, they will have a prefered. I have read the translation by Abullah Yusef Ali, I choose it because his commentary concentrates on the sematics and the meanings rather then the theological discussions.

The US government formed groups that were not meant to hurt the US... they groups changed target (as any extremist would do) when the power changed hands... the US is not responsible for terrorism or torture by those groups...

i'm not passing judgement on 1.6 billion muslims... i thought i made that clear... i'm passing judgement on muslim extremist terrorists that i believe to be in more abundance than the amount of extremist christians who perform acts of terrorism (ie, abortion clinic bombings)...

saying that there is no muslim culture as rediculous as saying that there is no christian culture... there is... why do muslim women cover themselves? because thier religion says so... why do they give to the poor? because thier religion says so... why do they live in groups? because they are of the same religion...

again, for clarity of situation, I am in no way passing judgement on all arabs or muslims... i am just pointing out that acts in the name of religion (acts like the one in the link at the top of this thread) are to be found more common among muslims...

maybe its just a bias in the media... maybe they just don't report when christians fly thier planes into buildings... but i doubt it...

 

[Sabz5150]

maybe they just don't report when christians fly thier planes into buildings... but i doubt it...

And on how many events have passenger planes been flown into buildings?

All that aside, christian extremists (evangelicals) usually do things like snipe doctors for performing abortions, firebomb clinics and other buildings they don't like, picket with messages of hate to those they do not like ("God hates fags" and "AIDS is God's punishment" are good examples).

Do Muslims drown their children and then claim that "the devil possessed me"?

Of course, back in the day, Christians were much, much worse.

I'll say that yes, many Christians are good people. However there are many within their ranks that would classify as "terrorist". But since they're good ol down home white Americans, they aren't looked upon as such... just the "snake handlers of a small corner of Arizona".

 

[Celerity]

I forgot my tinfoil hat at home today.

I'm not saying that all Muslims are terrorists... I am saying that all Terrorists are Muslim.


You think about that.

 

[lsvtec]

I forgot my tinfoil hat at home today.

I'm not saying that all Muslims are terrorists... I am saying that all Terrorists are Muslim.


You think about that.

Both statements are not true. Ever heard of the IRA? They certainly are not Muslim. How about the Sandinistas? Want more recent groups, how about the Chechyens rebel groups? Bush doesn't label them terrorist, but they do all of the same things that these so called terrorist groups do, except claim the wrong faith. The next obvious flaw in your blanket statement is that Bush labels environmental groups like Green Peace as Terrorists, while some deserve the label, others get it because he doesn't like their ideology. With that said how can you trust this persons labels?


You think about that.

The US government formed groups that were not meant to hurt the US... they groups changed target (as any extremist would do) when the power changed hands... the US is not responsible for terrorism or torture by those groups...

There was never a change of power. Osama bin-Ladin was in charge of al-Qaida when the US was providing them with money, weapons and supplies to fight the Russians. Had the people in charge of making that descision bothered to listen to anything Osama had said they would not have been so surprised when he turned his attention to the US when the Godless Soviets finally lost. The same story is true of the Taliban, there was no leadership change. The same people we supported gave supplies, man-power, and a safe meeting place to Osama and his crew. Hell, the same people that Bush invited to Texas to tour the place were the same that were removed from power in 2001.

i'm not passing judgement on 1.6 billion muslims... i thought i made that clear... i'm passing judgement on muslim extremist terrorists that i believe to be in more abundance than the amount of extremist christians who perform acts of terrorism (ie, abortion clinic bombings)...
...
again, for clarity of situation, I am in no way passing judgement on all arabs or muslims... i am just pointing out that acts in the name of religion (acts like the one in the link at the top of this thread) are to be found more common among muslims...

But it is obviously not split by like that. If there are approximately 1.6 billion Muslims on Earth, and you know of a group that can't be larger than thousands, how can you make this claim? It is because all you see on the Media are the extremists, or people who are cast as extremists. You know why you don't see the moderate Muslims (which are actaully a strong majority)? Because they spend their days doing much the same that you do. They work, support themselves, possibly a family, they have hobbies, etc. You have noway of proving that there are more "terrorists" per captia in the Muslim population than any other.

saying that there is no muslim culture as rediculous as saying that there is no christian culture... there is... why do muslim women cover themselves? because thier religion says so... why do they give to the poor? because thier religion says so... why do they live in groups? because they are of the same religion...

But there isn't a "Christian" culture. Do all Christians say the Rosery? Or have a Requiem played at a funeral, or believe in the Trinity, or use all of the same books in the Bible? No to all of these. There are one or two beliefs and ideas common to all christians (monotheism and that Jesus was very important to name a few) but there are so many small subgroups within the faith and then many more across other boundaries that you cannot claim there is an overall culture. The same is true of Islam.

 

[formby]

religion is the root of all "evil"...

we are but space dust in this great universe of ours..

muslims and christians have been killing each other FOR NO REASON other than hear, say

HEAR, SAY.... that is all religion is

but jihadists take the cake for the dumbest most savage people in the world

OHH
and HEZBOLA what about them what religion are they..


tell me what christian group has called for everyone to convert OR ELS WE WILL KILL YOU!!


NONE

 

[lsvtec]

Both Catholics and early Protestants called for it and they didn't stop killing each other over religion until the IRA finally laid its weapons down.

What proof do you have the Hezbollah is a terrorist organization beyond what the US/Israel say? Do you know who runs the hospitals in southern Lebanon? Who is cleaning up after the Israeli invasion? Who is took care of all the civilians left without humanitarian aid while the Israelis wouldn't let anyone in (including strictly Humanitarian organizations sponsored by the UN). Hezbollah.

Do you have any idea what the word Jihad actually means? Or are you just throwing it around because you heard the media here use it? The people that are responsible for the random killing and violence are particularly dumb and savage, but no more so than anyone else that has done exactly the same thing throughout time.

 

[Cashizslick]

Islam is nowhere near peaceful, but neither is Christianity so we can see where the constant in this equation lies. Heck, Christians did all the live burnings and exterminated cultures because their God deemed it so..

Your theology is a little fuzzy.


God had the Jew's kill/exterminate the cultures in their 'promised land' because of the evil of those cultures. Jews also are not necessarily Christians.

 

[Cashizslick]

But who, throughout time, has caused more damage and death? You do realize that more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason, correct?

If you were farmiliar with the 'good book' you would see that most of the time, it was God's command for those people to die. There is not one instance in the Bible where an Evil deed is praised as being God's will.

Either by the Jews, a Prophet, or by His own hand, God's untainted will is demonstrated threwout the Bible.

 

[formby]

The term "jihad" is often used to describe purely physical and military "holy war", though "physical" struggle, only makes up part of the broader meaning of the concept of jihad. The denotation is of a struggle, challenge, difficulty or (frequently) opposed effort, made either in accomplishment or as resistance. A person who engages in any form of jihad can be called a mujahid (in plural: mujahidin) (Arabic: striver, struggler), a term even more often applied to groups who practice armed struggle in the name of Islam by Islamic fundamentalists

Who is cleaning up after the Israeli invasion? Who is took care of all the civilians left without humanitarian aid while the Israelis wouldn't let anyone in (including strictly Humanitarian organizations sponsored by the UN). Hezbollah.

i'm sorry. lets let hezbola fire missiles into cities, AND lets let them rearm themselves. via "humanitarian" lines

RELIGION IS THE ROOT OF ALL "EVIL" specially Islamic fundamentalists

that whole region of the planet should be eliminated in the name of SCIENCE...lol

fucking idiots

 

[Cashizslick]

Actually girls are evil.

 

[lsvtec]

Good you can quote a dictionary. So as you see the term Jihadist has no meaning at all.

Let's try this on now, do you know why Hezbollah has been fighting with Israel? Partially because the international community seems to think that it is perfectly okay for Israel to violate national borders to kill or capture anyone that they label as dangerous. The UN doesn't even ask Israel for proof. So Hezbollah figured that if it is okay for the Israelis to do it, it must be okay for anyone.

Did you not read about the UN being told that they could not deliver aid through the blockade???? How about the Israelis killing 5 UN observers in Lebanon after being warned 7 seperate times that Israeli shells were landing close to a UN building? How about the death toll on either side? Do you know that for all the noise that Israel made about these rockets, there were at least 10 times as many Lebanese civilians killed during the invasion as Israeli civilians and soldiers combined? Wouldn't you expect the US to do something if Mexico annexed the southern half of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California?

that whole region of the planet should be eliminated in the name of SCIENCE...lol

Well done, except without the region we would still be leeching people to draw out bad blood and making people vomit at certain times of the day to balance out their humors. There would be no mathematics as we know it.

So far you have managed to produce nothing but empty arguments fueled by neo-con fanatacism. But you haven't proven nor actually said anything of substance. Do you know that the same line of logic/thinking was used to justify locking away people with disabilities, gypsys, slavs, jews, homosexual, communists, and anyone else that wasn't a National Socialist? Is that what you want?

 

[formby]

Well done, except without the region we would still be leeching people to draw out bad blood and making people vomit at certain times of the day to balance out their humors. There would be no mathematics as we know it.

... tell me one good thing that has come frome there lately.... other than terrorists and war.

 

[lsvtec]

... tell me one good thing that has come frome there lately.... other than terrorists and war.

You probably didn't mean how that sounds unless you think that Terrorists and War are good.

The universities in Iran are prolific in many areas, as are the universities in Pakistan. For instance at the International Conference on Bioengineering and Nano-technology (AIChE) Had one presenter that is Iranian talking about "The Role of Polymer-surface Interactions on the Viscoelastic Properties of the Polymer-based Nanocomposites" they had several more from Pakistan presenting "Drug Caoting and Delivery Systems". There are people in the middle east that contribute to the Free Software community regularly. There is a good chance that this forum is running on something written by someone in or from the Middle East. When I went to AADEBUG (The ACM's conference on Automated & Analysis-Driven Debugging) there were people from the Middle East, though I cannot remember what their topics were off hand as the conference was a year ago. Keep in mind that these were very specialized conferences and the number of people of Middle-Eastern decent (all of the ones at AADEBUG were going to school there as well) was roughly equal to any other group present.

Like anywhere else they build things, they discover things, they invent things. You cannot discount the entire region and its inhabitants just because you haven't bothered to look at them.

 

[SSL0207]

religion is the root of all "evil"...

not entirly sure what you are saying here... religion is the only reason we have a concept of evil (or good for that matter)...

in reply to post that were made while i was at school...

my statement was that the percentage of Christians who act (act = the present tense, as in, i'm not talking about power hungry pope's 1250 years ago) as terrorists (ie doctor sniping, clinic bombing) and the number of people they have killed or harmed is significantly smaller than the percentage of Muslims who act as extremeists and the number of people who have been killed and harmed by them...

i support this with the fact that most freedom loving countries are chasing muslim terrorists... not evangelical bible thumpers or snake handlers...

my second point is that the Muslim culture (as in, what is inherent in a Muslim society) is much worse for the rest of us than is Christian culture (as in, the way most christians live)...

i support this by looking at society in general and making a few obvious conclusions:

women free to be equal humans > women without freedom, in absolute submission

kids with a good education > kids with less education (which is the general pattern in countires in which the law is based on Muslim religous law)

economy powerful with large middle class > a society in which all the money is in the hands of ultra rich oil barons...

 

[Sabz5150]

If you were farmiliar with the 'good book' you would see that most of the time, it was God's command for those people to die. There is not one instance in the Bible where an Evil deed is praised as being God's will.

Either by the Jews, a Prophet, or by His own hand, God's untainted will is demonstrated threwout the Bible.

Because God commanded these people to die, it was all good? If you factor in what the Popes throughout history have decreed (remember, the Pope talks directly to God), then a LOT of bloodsheed has been commanded by God.

Radical Muslims say that Allah commands that the enemies of Islam (read: us) are to die, does that make it all good?

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Sabz5150]

my statement was that the percentage of Christians who act (act = the present tense, as in, i'm not talking about power hungry pope's 1250 years ago) as terrorists (ie doctor sniping, clinic bombing) and the number of people they have killed or harmed is significantly smaller than the percentage of Muslims who act as extremeists and the number of people who have been killed and harmed by them...

So... simply because their numbers are smaller (I like how you conveniently leave out the atrocities of the past) we should just let them be? Eh, they only kill a few people, it's alright.

Killing is killing. You can't let one group of religious terrorists run free while attacking another just because they are Christian Americans. That's just hypocrisy.

 

[SSL0207]

So... simply because their numbers are smaller (I like how you conveniently leave out the atrocities of the past) we should just let them be? Eh, they only kill a few people, it's alright.

Killing is killing. You can't let one group of religious terrorists run free while attacking another just because they are Christian Americans. That's just hypocrisy.

I would draw a pretty good line between the old Catholic church which (even most evangelicals) will admit was not about God, it was about power etc... and what the church is today...

I leave out atrocities in the distant past because they were not committed by the same groups of christians we have today... whereas the terrorists organizations responsible for 9/11 and the multiple other bombings are still mostly at large today... continuing thier atrocities...

No, killing anybody is not alright... i've already stated that at least 4 timeis that christians do bad thigns too... my statement didn't say that christians don't do bad things... it didn't even hint that... i just pointed out where More bad thigns are to be found...

I think you meant your last sentence to be the opposite that you typed... so i'll not comment on that other than to say that there the christians who do evil have been punished to the full extent of the law... even by other christians... (look back to that case in Texas while Bush was gov and how he allowed a Christian woman who commited an atrocity to be put to death)...

So no... christian "extremists" (and i don't think that evangelicals by default are in this group)... christians are not getting away with anything...

look at my statements in my last post again and tell me if you think there is substantial evidence to disagree...

 

[Cashizslick]

Because God commanded these people to die, it was all good? If you factor in what the Popes throughout history have decreed (remember, the Pope talks directly to God), then a LOT of bloodsheed has been commanded by God.

Well, if God is the eternal, all perfect, all knowing, creator of the universe the Bible states, then if it is His will for me (or somebody else) to die - who am I to say otherwise??

And as for the pope's who committed Henous crimes in God's name . . He will deal with them - dont worry.

Radical Muslims say that Allah commands that the enemies of Islam (read: us) are to die, does that make it all good?

You can't have it both ways.

No you cant have it both ways. However, the Bible explicitly states who God is and His qualities, giving us a clear picture of who He is - the Radical muslim's version of God is different. So who is right? Thats something you need to decide on your own.

 

[formby]

Quote:
Well done, except without the region we would still be leeching people to draw out bad blood and making people vomit at certain times of the day to balance out their humors. There would be no mathematics as we know it.

... tell me one good thing that has come frome there lately.... other than terrorists and war.

yeah i miss typed that... lol

but you got the jist of it