When to shift

[newb]

I don't think you know the difference between Syncromeshed and Constantmesh. You can have a Constantmesh transmission that isn't synchronized.

I guess your right. I thought "syncromesh" was another name for the same thing. So your sayin Hondas are "syncromesh" and not constant mesh?

 

[K2e2vin]

Pretty much all modern car transmissions are constant mesh with synchromesh locking mechanism.

 

[newb]

Pretty much all modern car transmissions are constant mesh with synchromesh locking mechanism.

I know this, I was just trying to bait him into givin me an ignorant answer.

 

[caboose]

I know this, I was just trying to bait him into givin me an ignorant answer.

...SUUUURE LMMFAO!! You really think that I was going to say that honda transmissions didnt have syncromesh? You can't destroy syncro's if they don't exist.

I'm conviced that you have no idea what you are talking about. Earlier you thought that constant mesh meant that the syncros were always trying to align the gears 100% of the time.

And yes, you can have a Constant mesh transmission without synromesh. I believe that's what they use in motorcycles

@ K2e2vin

I have clutchless shifted, and I can do it relativly smoothly without grinding. I use the same method that you described.

That's how a synchro works; the RPM does not have to be exactly the same; but once one ring catches it'll "match" the assembly allowing it to engage easily. The rev matching comes from the revs falling. As newb stated, all the gears are already turning. It's not like you're having to accelerate the shafts to match and what not.

Synros try to match the speed of the shaft to the speed of the gear, whearther the shaft is spinning slower (down shift) or faster (up shift). The goal of the syncro IS to try and match the speed of the shaft and dog teeth exactly, so any time they are moving at different speeds when you move the shifter into a gear, they are working at trying to match them.

You apply light pressure; you're not actually pushing it in.

In this step, are you not applying pressure against the syncro? What's happening is the syncro is attempting to slow down the input shaft, but it cannot because the input shaft is being driven by the engine. The syncro finally let's it "pop" into gear once the shaft and gear match speed, but until this time, the synro is getting worn.

If this amount of wear doen't worry you, then go ahead and do it. I would rather be easy on my syncros considering both my cars have well over 200k on them.

 

[K2e2vin]

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And yes, you can have a Constant mesh transmission without synromesh. I believe that's what they use in motorcycles

@ K2e2vin

No one said you couldn't have a constant mesh without synchro's. What does this have to do with your statement about the difference between constant mesh and synchromesh?

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Synros try to match the speed of the shaft to the speed of the gear, whearther the shaft is spinning slower (down shift) or faster (up shift). The goal of the syncro IS to try and match the speed of the shaft and dog teeth exactly, so any time they are moving at different speeds when you move the shifter into a gear, they are working at trying to match them.

Whether clutch in or clutch out; it's doing the exact same thing(the cones don't make contact until the blocker ring is relieved. So, these negates your argument about it wearing the synchro's faster. Rev matching with the clutch in would probably cause the least amount of wear.

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In this step, are you not applying pressure against the syncro? What's happening is the syncro is attempting to slow down the input shaft, but it cannot because the input shaft is being driven by the engine. The syncro finally let's it "pop" into gear once the shaft and gear match speed, but until this time, the synro is getting worn.

The synchros aren't actually engaging. What you're actually doing is pressing it against the blocker ring.

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If this amount of wear doen't worry you, then go ahead and do it. I would rather be easy on my syncros considering both my cars have well over 200k on them.

Simple, don't drive or drive on the highway only. As stated before, most every transmission I took apart had synchro's that were still good...minus my old Accord which wasn't beaten on at all. If anything, you're more likely to have bearings go bad than to fry a synchro; whether using the clutch or not.

 

[YBLEGAL]

No one is going to win this argument; each of you should just walk away knowing that your knowledge is 'correct'... call it a day, go work on something productive

 

[newb]

I'm conviced that you have no idea what you are talking about. Earlier you thought that constant mesh meant that the syncros were always trying to align the gears 100% of the time.

Oh man what was I thinkin? You are prally right. I mean it does say you know everything in your user title. Is that how you got banned the first 2 times? By being right 100% of the time?

 

[caboose]

Oh man what was I thinkin? You are prally right. I mean it does say you know everything in your user title. Is that how you got banned the first 2 times? By being right 100% of the time?

Actually I didn't get banned for anything I said on this site, and the second time was a mistake.

I'm just going to ignore your comments, considering that you tried to tell me that a constant mesh means constant syncronized.

No one said you couldn't have a constant mesh without synchro's. What does this have to do with your statement about the difference between constant mesh and synchromesh?

Wrong. Syncros work 100% of the time. In a constant mesh tranny, the syncro turns the next gear at the appropriate speed to shift without grinding, rather the clutch is engadged or not.

Here's what I was talking about. Newb talked about how a constant mesh tranny spins the next gear at the appropriate speed. That's wrong.

A constant mesh does spin all the gears, but not at the correct speed all of the time. That's why I was saying that you could have a constant mesh that doesn't syncronize the gears at all

The synchronizer ring (#7) in the diagram is what is normally called a synchro ring - it's the part that usually wears out. The synchronizer sleeve of the synchronizer (#1) slides back and forth on the synchronizer hub (#3), which is the part that is attached to the output shaft by he barely visible splines on the inner diameter. The synchro ring (#7) "rides" on the conical shaped part (#6) of the gear (# 5). When you shift into a gear, the synchronizer sleeve (#1) is moved toward the gear (#5). As it moves, the small teeth (#9) engage the teeth (#4) on the synchro ring, which causes the synchro ring to rotate at the same rate as the synchronizer assembly (#1 & #3) which are splined to each other as well as the output shaft. As synchronizer sleeve (#1) continues to move toward the gear, the inside of the synchro ring (#7) is pressed up against the conical shaped part of the gear. This causes the gear to match speed with the synchronizer, and once the speeds are matched, the synchronizer sleeve continues to slide toward the gear, engaging the teeth on the side of the gear.

So when you are loading up against the blocker (#7), you are forcing the blocker ring against the cone (#6), thus wearing down the surface of #6 & #7. Granted you are applying minimal pressure, so you are reducing the wear as much as possible, but wear is still there.

 

[newb]

Thats funny, considering I corrected myself shortly after I said syncros work 100% of the time and you agreed with me.

 

[K2e2vin]

Technically there's no wear, at least on the teeth(that's what "wears out"). If you look at a worn synchro, you'll see that it's the top and edges of the "house" that are rounded out. Loading it wouldn't cause these parts to wear, but actual engagement. Slamming it into gear, either clutch in our clutch out, just generally "beating" on the transmission will wear it out.

Yes it rubs, but the fluid should keep that area lubricated.

 

[efhondakid]

Ok, so we have all come to the conclusion that rev matching/clutchless shifts don wear out anyting.

 

[caboose]

I think that we both agree as to what's going on.

As to the wear issue.. I don't think that either one will ever come out the winner, lol.

 

[B16RacerN2NR]

I don't know, I just don't see how clutchless shifting wouldn't wear out anything. If that were the case, why even have a clutch pedal

It's just like an ls/vtec. Sure it has it's pro's but if it were really that great, Honda would of made it from the factory. That being said, IMO, if there is no wear with clutchless shifting, then why even give the car a clutch pedal...

Not saying you guys are wrong but i'll never understand it...

 

[budda]

That's why they now have autosticks.

 

[K2e2vin]

Easy, because you can't always use clutchless shifting; rev matching is more time consuming and some people would not be able to figure out clutchless shifting and jam it into gear. Plus, you need the clutch for stop lights/taking off.

 

[B16RacerN2NR]

Easy, because you can't always use clutchless shifting; rev matching is more time consuming and some people would not be able to figure out clutchless shifting and jam it into gear. Plus, you need the clutch for stop lights/taking off.

I thought I read somewhere in you or someone else's post that said you can't shove it into gear. Something about a ring not allowing you to until everything gets aligned... IDK, this thread is so fucking long I didn't even read the entire thing lol

 

[caboose]

I thought I read somewhere in you or someone else's post that said you can't shove it into gear. Something about a ring not allowing you to until everything gets aligned... IDK, this thread is so fucking long I didn't even read the entire thing lol

#68 explains how it works. Loading against the blocker=loading against the syncro cone.

 

[K2e2vin]

I thought I read somewhere in you or someone else's post that said you can't shove it into gear. Something about a ring not allowing you to until everything gets aligned... IDK, this thread is so fucking long I didn't even read the entire thing lol

Yes, the blocker ring. It blocks it from engaging, but you can always force it to go. In other words, if you were just shifting normally without putting much effort onto the shifter, you can feel that it's not letting it engage...where's if you were to forcefully jam it in there...might grind for a bit but eventually engage.

btw yes, I'm still sick.

 

[B16RacerN2NR]

btw yes, I'm still sick.

I sent you that message on monday. it's fucking thursday lol...

 

[K2e2vin]

I work from 4pm-2:30am so I didn't want it to go to your phone or whatever "mobile device" you're using. I didn't see that message until I got home at like 3am.

edit...now that I think about it, that's like 1am for you.