My internal struggle to find an engine.

Hexen

Senior Member
I've been reading these boards for nearly two months now... posting somewhat oftenly on the few things I know about or have questions about.


And I have yet to decided what engine I would like to swap.

It comes down to three hard choices.
Keep in mind I will definatly run boost sooner or later. Sooner hopefully :)
The car will be a daily driver, and I commute 20 minutes or so every day back and forth (i know not a big deal.) but I do rack up the miles quite quick.

H22a, B18c1 or B18b

The LS seems a bit weak to me. At 142 starting horses... ading turbo and possibly (?) getting a 75 horsepower boost will only put it up to 215~, which is only 20 hp more than the stock h22a, and much considerably more expensive.

B18c1 seems great at 170hp because from what I have read, I could keep my AC and my PS while having a still decent engine. The biggest con is that it's a higher compression and I would not be able to run as much boost, but this is countered over the LS by just higher stock HP.

Now the grand-daddy H22a seems like a hands down choice, as it is cheaper, faster and just a plain out more scary motor. When you lift your hood and someone see's that, they know whats up :)
Turbo it and you have a serious street machine, or even track car if you wanted. This engine has the most potential (horsepower wise) that I can tell from the three. It is also about $1000 cheaper than the GSR.
I wouldn't need to turbo it right away because 190hp would hold more over (a big change from a 127 hp 5th gen EX.)
The biggest thing though is the loss of AC (hey it gets hot in northern cali) and the possibility of losing PS (although most people have said its possible to keep it while running turbo.)


Any comments or opinions on trying to make up my mind for me?
I've got the money to do the swap in any case. Although I don't have the car. I'm looking to sell my 5th gen automatic probably and buy a manual of the same generation (i like the 5ths more than any other civic, and I have never liked hatchbacks.)
 

xj0hnx

I wanna be sedated
VIP
I lived in south Texas for 22 years and only had a/c in one car.If you really want the motor(H22) you can overcome.Besides isn't someone working on keeping a/c with that swap?
 

SleEPeR_CRX

Senior Member
I agree, the H22a is a killer swap. My friends stock H22a can keep up with a turbo GSR. but i would go with a LS swap. They have more stock lbs of trq than a GSR, and if u can get it paired with a GSR or b16a tranny they cna post mid 14's without boost. After boost u can go low/mid 13's. also if u need to run over 10 psi of boost, if u get the proper internals it will run it alot better than a GSR or H22a, b/c of vtec's big lobes. I think once u look into buying and swapping an H22a, u will see that they arent as cheap as u figure. and u could probably get a LS motor B16a tranny and NOs for roughly the same price.
 

Domeskilla

Senior Member
Originally posted by SleEPeR_CRX@Dec 26 2002, 01:42 PM
My friends stock H22a can keep up with a turbo GSR.

the gsr owner.. can't drive, has a VERY VERY small turbo and set at .01 psi.

If its a JDM h22 its 200hp or 220 with type s or euro type r(and thatis at the crank).. GSR with a turbo (depending on kit) prolly has around 230-250 or so (if not boosted much) and that is around 210-220whp.

So.. i call.. BULLSHIT!
 

phunky.buddha

Admin with a big stick
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Domes- power curve structure makes a huge difference... that's how an NA setup with less power to the wheels can beat a turbo setup with tons of power and boost lag. You're right though- a turbo GSR would usually beat a stock H22 in the same car.

:D

Hexen- you CAN swap an H22 into a Civic and still keep your AC and power steering. HASport actually has a kit listed on their page that will allow you to do this- Intercrew (shop that did my swap) will also drop in an H22 for you and keep your AC/PS.
 

posol

RETIRED
Staff member
Originally posted by Hexen@Dec 26 2002, 12:40 PM
The LS seems a bit weak to me.


the ls is a great platform for boost.

Let me let you in on a little story that was told to me by the person I am getting a lot of my turbo parts from.

he has an integra with 18" wheels, put it in a lighter car and normal wheels, and watch the results change. t4 60-1 turbo

Dyno: Ls/T
404/330

he then did a head swap, gsr
Dyno: Ls/Vtec/T
440/310

track times:
Ls/T
[email protected]

ls/vtec/t
[email protected]

yes, he made MORE PEAK power and ran a slower time.

why?

its quite simple.

the vtec head only makes power up top. its a tall curve going up towards redline.
the ls, makes near-peak power from 5000-redline

althought the gsr is more impressive on a dyno, the ls puts more power overall to the wheels.
its calculus. itegration-- finding the area under the curve. that my friend, is where the power band- the USABLE TOTAL POWERBAND lies.

now, wither either b-series you should be abe to keep your a/c. it depends on the type of manifold you get and how it mounts the turbo and waste gate. using an equal length manifold with a/c is not an option. using a revhard or f-max style is.

Now the grand-daddy H22a seems like a hands down choice, as it is cheaper, faster and just a plain out more scary motor.


As for the h-series, it is NOT and will NEVER BE cheaper to boost. period.
you cant run a forged piston without a resleave. you need a mount kit. you need to convert your shifter to crapy cabels.
h-series parts are rarer, epxect to pay 200 more for an h-series manifold of the same thing as a b-series... jsut cuz its a h-series. good luck finding piping that actually fits. a/c is out of the question on h22/boosted on nearly EVERY manifold i've ever seen.

IMO, LS/T is the most effective, and cheapest way to go.
 

phunky.buddha

Admin with a big stick
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Originally posted by pissedoffsol@Dec 27 2002, 01:06 AM
itegration-- finding the area under the curve. that my friend, is where the power band- the USABLE TOTAL POWERBAND lies.

:werd:

Math is good. Proper spelling is almost as good. :lol:
 

posol

RETIRED
Staff member
lol- F U. but that is my point.. peak means nothing- its total power band availble power based on your gear box
 

Hexen

Senior Member
Dyno: Ls/T
404/330


First of all, what the hell did he do to get an LS up to 400hp?

I'm just going to guess that this is a fully racebuilt car?


you need to convert your shifter to crapy cabels.

h22a is a hydro tranny though...
but yes the HASport mounts are $650
 

Hexen

Senior Member
Hexen- you CAN swap an H22 into a Civic and still keep your AC and power steering. HASport actually has a kit listed on their page that will allow you to do this- Intercrew (shop that did my swap) will also drop in an H22 for you and keep your AC/PS.


I don't think any of these include boosting though :(
 

mrblk

Member
what about a ls head on a b20 bottom end, i would thing that the additional torque would be pretty substancial, and it wouldent be quite as large as a h22, and should have lower compression as well, i dont know how well the bastardized motors run, but it seems like it has potential, if you can get the characteristics and power curve from the different parts.

just an idea, heh i still have alot of reading to do before i work out the details of my own swap.
 

posol

RETIRED
Staff member
ls and b20- heads are identical. theres 0 point in swapping them.

the car was far from a race car- shit, it looks more like a show car than a race car. everyone knocks the ls... with some head work to hold revs, and sleeves to hold the boost, hello vtec killer for half the price.

by cables, i meant the linkage. our civics and tegs use oposing bars with a stabalizer. 'ludes use a gay cable to move it instead. you will have to cut a whole through your firewall to fit it as well.

here's the car:

 

phunky.buddha

Admin with a big stick
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Originally posted by Hexen@Dec 27 2002, 03:05 PM
I don't think any of these include boosting though :(

Ah- well if you're talking about boost in general, you really should rethink some of your previous statements about power. You should be building up the engines to begin with, then dropping them in and boosting them. If you're on a budget and want to only boost on the stock internals, don't go with the H22. It'll be out of your price range... just boost an LS.
 

Hexen

Senior Member
I'm thinking more and more LS I guess... which is odd because I didn't think I would.

From what it sounds like the LS is a good engine for boost (what about a CRV? its .2 litre more...?)

Running boost I would need what?
LS Motor
Re-sleeved
Turbo + Piping & Intercooler (and other turbo components.)
what other internals would I need / or would be recommended to be upgraded to handle the boost or raise overall engine stability? (possibly droping compression also.)

then just misc. things like
Intake
Exhaust
C.A.I...
Things you should have anyhow.
 

Domeskilla

Senior Member
Originally posted by Hexen@Dec 29 2002, 05:19 AM
I'm thinking more and more LS I guess... which is odd because I didn't think I would.

From what it sounds like the LS is a good engine for boost (what about a CRV? its .2 litre more...?)

Running boost I would need what?
LS Motor
Re-sleeved
Turbo + Piping & Intercooler (and other turbo components.)
what other internals would I need / or would be recommended to be upgraded to handle the boost or raise overall engine stability? (possibly droping compression also.)

then just misc. things like
Intake
Exhaust
C.A.I...
Things you should have anyhow.

well.. if your wanting to full build motor for turbo, i would, resleeve, eagle rods (b has some for sale), Endyn roller wave pistons (b has some for sale), There is your bullet proof bottom end. Then, in the head, i would go, crower head kit, 3 angel valve job, crower turbo cams, 3" thermal exhaust.. Talk to B about turbo componants. Delt shitgates will cause boostspikes, and those can = boom! the t3/t4 turbo isn't the best for daily driver (see B's explaination somewhere on it). Intercooler for anything more then aorund 10 or so psi on a 18g or so turbo. Skunk 2 mani (or JG), hondata, bigger TB, pnp head.. Piece a turbo kit together :) Best thing, talk to B about what he would recommend. Seeing as he is going through it, but since he lives at home and makes nice cash, he can pay 800 fucking dollars for the manifold :p and not be in debt forever!

I dont think CAI will be necessary, i dont think you use one with turbo.
 

hondapower

Junior Member
hey, i'm kinda new to this stuff, so how much boost could u run on an ls motor with stock internals? all i want is a pretty quick car while not spending a lot of money. lol (isn't that what everyone wants :lol: ) well, i'm gettin a 94 hb so that's what the engine would be goin into. i'm lookin for low 13's on the track. possible with a boosted ls on stock internals? :huh:
 
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