the article on the LS all motor monster, is very informing and has inspired me to build the same. instead of the jdm b16 pistions, i have usdm b16 pistons and rods, will i be able to bolt up the rods and pistions from the b16 to my ls...i searched the site but i didn't have much luck...also would it be necessary for blockguard/stronger rods etc...i will also have a few more bold-ons, but my main concern is making it reliable
all motor monster ls build
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exospeed*com
Member
The LS motor is the forgoten motor. we use to do quite a few of these back in the day.. but the popularity of the VTEC heads somewhat pushed the non-vtec setups aside.
There is potential in these LS motors thats why we developed several cam specs for them. Not everyone wants to go VTEC so a good All motor LS setup is a good cam, and liek you said, b16 or ITR pistons.
if you are going for a basic street buildup, the block guard is not necesarry. actually its not recommended. they tend to block the cooling passages. the stock sleeves hold up well anyways.
so in conclusions.. a reliable setup would be a street cam, b16 pistons and some nice bolt ons. that already there would give many B-VTEC motors a challenge.
Wil
There is potential in these LS motors thats why we developed several cam specs for them. Not everyone wants to go VTEC so a good All motor LS setup is a good cam, and liek you said, b16 or ITR pistons.
if you are going for a basic street buildup, the block guard is not necesarry. actually its not recommended. they tend to block the cooling passages. the stock sleeves hold up well anyways.
so in conclusions.. a reliable setup would be a street cam, b16 pistons and some nice bolt ons. that already there would give many B-VTEC motors a challenge.
Wil
i was told that, you dont need, a blockguard, but you do need rod bolts because of the comp. your going up to, its 11 or high 10,
im also writing to see if enyone knows, if the stock, rod bolts and rods will hold with just the pistons, and stock head, stock everything.
PLEASE HELKP ME OUT TOO!
im also writing to see if enyone knows, if the stock, rod bolts and rods will hold with just the pistons, and stock head, stock everything.
PLEASE HELKP ME OUT TOO!
New rod bolts (ARP preferably) is always good insurance when you're revving higher than stock. If you're tearing down the bottom end to get new rod bolts, it's kind of pointless to spend all the money to just run all stock head hardware. You might as well replace the pistons while you're in there.
the usdm pistions will yield a slightly lower CR than the JDM ones, but will fit fine on the LS rods. you'll be in the 10.7:1 ish area. stock rods and rod bolts are fine... Bill didn't upgrade his. but if you want to, by all means, go for it. it will definitly offer more security, and more so- future power handling capability.
Stock head = bad
if you have the cash at some point, look into getting some headwork done to that ls head. thats the power robber right there. with some basic work and a valve train to hold a larger cam, you're in spanking gsr territory.
Stock head = bad
if you have the cash at some point, look into getting some headwork done to that ls head. thats the power robber right there. with some basic work and a valve train to hold a larger cam, you're in spanking gsr territory.
beerbongskickass
Senior Member
I know your wanting to do an LS build up, but getting a vtec head would be so much easier. I am guessing doing a bunch of headwork and building the LS head will cost a lot and you could probably find a good vtec head for around $500. A stock B16, GSR, ITR head would flow much better than the LS head and you wouldn't really need to upgrade anything else on the vtec head.
Last time I was at the dyno my buddy had a stock LS motor running 11 psi and only made 198whp. The only thing holding him back was the crappy flowing LS head. You could actually see on the dyno chart how fast the numbers would drop at higher rpms. It just had no power up high at all. I actually made more horsepower than he did at 10 psi with my sohc vtec. We both had chipped ECU's and the same tuner also.
Last time I was at the dyno my buddy had a stock LS motor running 11 psi and only made 198whp. The only thing holding him back was the crappy flowing LS head. You could actually see on the dyno chart how fast the numbers would drop at higher rpms. It just had no power up high at all. I actually made more horsepower than he did at 10 psi with my sohc vtec. We both had chipped ECU's and the same tuner also.
MaaseyRacer
Senior Member
Screw the VTEC head, you can get a good port and polish done for 1100 bucks and that, is money well spent for this motor. I say go all motor LS with the higher compression pistons, and then if you feel you still need more power find a pre-ported LS head for sale, I have seen a few on Honda-tech.com. Then if you still want more power get some crower cams, and in the end if that in not enough get a VTEC head, and build that up, you will not need to do any bottom end work for the VTEC head as you will already have the b16 pistons in there.
beerbong, again your post sucks. He is asking for one thing, then you bring up something else. I am sure that he has heard and considered a LSVTEC 0983409583 tiems, but he has done his homework, and he wants the NA nonVTEC LS.
Lets compair. For argument sake, you already have a b18b. Your trying to yeild about the same power
Keep the ls head....
Upgrade cams (crower 404's 400 or so)
Springs and retainers (250 or so)
pnp 700
Total, 1350
Buy vtec head
Vtec head (5-700)
Cams (600)
Springs and retainers (250 or so)
Pnp 1000
Total 2350-2550
If you haven't noticed, parts for VTEC heads are alot more expensive and to pnp them is normally more too. I have seen a very mild LS setup KILL a type R on the dyno and the LS didn't even have a PnP job. Yea they don't flow the best but they can still make power.
Lets compair. For argument sake, you already have a b18b. Your trying to yeild about the same power
Keep the ls head....
Upgrade cams (crower 404's
400 or so)Springs and retainers (250 or so)
pnp 700
Total, 1350
Buy vtec head
Vtec head (5-700)
Cams (600)
Springs and retainers (250 or so)
Pnp 1000
Total 2350-2550
If you haven't noticed, parts for VTEC heads are alot more expensive and to pnp them is normally more too. I have seen a very mild LS setup KILL a type R on the dyno and the LS didn't even have a PnP job. Yea they don't flow the best but they can still make power.
i just got yestersday, usdm, b16 PR3 pistons, my friend gave them to me, brand new, but they are made by TOPLINE, are they as good as factory, and will they take 10.8-1 comp. im also buying the rod bolts and taking the rods to get shotpeened, or something like that, its 10% stronger, (so i heard)
i dont know?
im also trying to see if i can get the GSR intake manifold to fit, in the LS head, soe guy in the honda dealer told me yes it bolts right up, and the only reason im putting it on, is because it has that dual plate, thing, so when an RPM hits it opens the second plate, for more power, like the neon R/T, and the spec-v.
is this all true and if it is, is it a good idea or what ?. im getting these things for free, and im doing the work.
"Javier"
i dont know?
im also trying to see if i can get the GSR intake manifold to fit, in the LS head, soe guy in the honda dealer told me yes it bolts right up, and the only reason im putting it on, is because it has that dual plate, thing, so when an RPM hits it opens the second plate, for more power, like the neon R/T, and the spec-v.
is this all true and if it is, is it a good idea or what ?. im getting these things for free, and im doing the work.
"Javier"
lsvtec
GNU/Linux Evangelist
The guy at Honda is a tool. The GSR manifold will not fit. You would be much better off running the Skunk2 manifold, it will bolt up with 0 modification and it flows much better than the GSR.
To answer the question in your first post, B16 rods will not work in your engine. They are too short and you would be running a compression ratio that would be too low to make any power.
To answer the question in your first post, B16 rods will not work in your engine. They are too short and you would be running a compression ratio that would be too low to make any power.
beerbongskickass
Senior Member
Originally posted by asmallsol@May 17 2004, 02:19 PM
beerbong, again your post sucks. He is asking for one thing, then you bring up something else. I am sure that he has heard and considered a LSVTEC 0983409583 tiems, but he has done his homework, and he wants the NA nonVTEC LS.
Lets compair. For argument sake, you already have a b18b. Your trying to yeild about the same power
Keep the ls head....
Upgrade cams (crower 404's
Springs and retainers (250 or so)
pnp 700
Total, 1350
Buy vtec head
Vtec head (5-700)
Cams (600)
Springs and retainers (250 or so)
Pnp 1000
Total 2350-2550
If you haven't noticed, parts for VTEC heads are alot more expensive and to pnp them is normally more too. I have seen a very mild LS setup KILL a type R on the dyno and the LS didn't even have a PnP job. Yea they don't flow the best but they can still make power.
First, I brought up using a vtec head because it would be much cheaper and a lot easier than having all the work done to the LS head. Second, vtec is a great concept so why not take advantage of it? Third, if you would have read my post I didn't say anything about building the vtec head because it DOESN'T need to be built or port and polished. If you use the stock LS head it will need to be built and PnP because... pissedoffsol's words "stock head = bad". I just don't see the point in spending extra money when you don't need to.
Let's compare for argument sake (using your prices)...
$500-$700 for a complete vtec head that doesn't need work
or
At least $1350 to build the LS head.
"MaaseyRacer" said screw the vtec head? It makes no sense to put a bunch of money into an LS head first, just to see if that's enough for you. Then if that's not enough get a vtec head and put a bunch of money into that? That would cost a shit load of money. Why not just get the vtec head to start with? Aparently nobody on this forum cares about money.
beerbongskickass
Senior Member
Although if this guy wants to build an LS just to be different and doesn't care about money, nothing I said would really matter. I was just assuming he was like the majority of us honda owners and on a budget.
Um, you do remember its not just a bolt on affair right? Either you have to have to do machining to get the dowel pins to line up, block off the oil line, modify the head gasket, and find some way to run oil to the vtec selinoid.... or buy GE's kit which also is far from cheap.
Yes vtec is a great concept. For ricers that want to pretend like their car has some weird form of NA turbo
VTEC is all about streetability. What makes power in the vtec equipped engines? Larger cam profiles.
I spent about $600 on my setup, (cams, retainers, valve springs, new HG, milling) and one weekend of time, and ended up with a power curve that frightens modified itr owners
facts:
b16 head: 500
machine work/pins/etc- 200? ish? i'm not sure
oil lines/fittings- using real earls shit- 150-200
you need a vtec computer too + 125
misc wires, possibly some sensors missing from the head 50-150+ish??
ut oh, most bare heads don't come with an IM either... the ls won't won't fit right without some more work... so, +100 for b16 stock + 250 for skunk2 or whatever
opps, need gaskets too + 30
damn, my throttle cable doesn't fit now either... + 75
headgasket- should replace when chaning/removing heads +100
headstuds- LS has 2 long weird ones... vtec heads won't take that.... +100
i'm sure im missing some stuff here, but my point is that it adds up fast.
i bought a FULLY build LS head off a classifed forum (which eventually made it to wildbill's car) for 750 shipped.
it was ported by portflow, had 100% portflow valve train, and came with the stock casting of course.
-100 for the old head that i could sell, and were' at 650.
+ 450 for or 404's we're at 1000.
add $100 for p30 sir2 pistons and rings.. 1100.
1150 bucks, 160+ whp with stock manifolds, stock computer.
or 1500+ to say you have vtec, make less torque, and about 150-ish whp
b16 head: 500
machine work/pins/etc- 200? ish? i'm not sure
oil lines/fittings- using real earls shit- 150-200
you need a vtec computer too + 125
misc wires, possibly some sensors missing from the head 50-150+ish??
ut oh, most bare heads don't come with an IM either... the ls won't won't fit right without some more work... so, +100 for b16 stock + 250 for skunk2 or whatever
opps, need gaskets too + 30
damn, my throttle cable doesn't fit now either... + 75
headgasket- should replace when chaning/removing heads +100
headstuds- LS has 2 long weird ones... vtec heads won't take that.... +100
i'm sure im missing some stuff here, but my point is that it adds up fast.
i bought a FULLY build LS head off a classifed forum (which eventually made it to wildbill's car) for 750 shipped.
it was ported by portflow, had 100% portflow valve train, and came with the stock casting of course.
-100 for the old head that i could sell, and were' at 650.
+ 450 for or 404's we're at 1000.
add $100 for p30 sir2 pistons and rings.. 1100.
1150 bucks, 160+ whp with stock manifolds, stock computer.
or 1500+ to say you have vtec, make less torque, and about 150-ish whp
HEY IF ANYONE KNOWS PLEASE ANSWER ME BACK, I HAVE A 92 CIVIC DX WITH AN LS MOTOR, IM GOING TO CHANGE THE PISTONS I A WEEK OR SO, I GOT THESE B16 PISTONS, FROM TOPLINE, ARE THEY AS GOOD AS THE ORIGINALS, OR BETTER?
ALSO IM RUNNING IT WITH MY SOHC NON VTEC ECU, AND I HAVE NO 02 SENSOR, I GET A CHECK ENGINE, I PUT ON THE 02 SENSOR AND STILL IS ON, I GET 4 LONG, AND 1 SHORT, FROM WHAT HEARD ITS 41 CODE 41, COULD IT BE THE 02 STILL???
PLEASE HELP GUYS. IM TRYING TO GET THIS DONE, BEFORE I PUT IN THE PISTONS.
"JAVIER"
ALSO IM RUNNING IT WITH MY SOHC NON VTEC ECU, AND I HAVE NO 02 SENSOR, I GET A CHECK ENGINE, I PUT ON THE 02 SENSOR AND STILL IS ON, I GET 4 LONG, AND 1 SHORT, FROM WHAT HEARD ITS 41 CODE 41, COULD IT BE THE 02 STILL???
PLEASE HELP GUYS. IM TRYING TO GET THIS DONE, BEFORE I PUT IN THE PISTONS.
"JAVIER"
MaaseyRacer
Senior Member
Easy on the caps. TopLine pistons are good pistons, so are their rings, a lot of people have a hard time getting non-OEM products, however topline is a reputable parts manufacturer, that has been around for quite some time, they are from Austrialia, Austrailia has some of the best parts makers out there, ACL, Topline, ect.
Yeah and if you are getting code 41 yeah you are still have having o2 sensor wiring issues, or something involving the O2 sensor.
Actually no it isn't.
Maybe on some F1 cars, they use a form of variable valve timming that is used to increase the powerband.
But on all hondas to this point all the lower cam lobe is allows the car to idle comfortably , it has nothing to do with performance.
A powerband is rarely longer than 2,000rpm. After 1st gear, if you drop below your powerband (and vtec engagement is MUCH lower than the powerband) you either need to downshift or change your gearing.
VTEC is just for comfort, no for performance
MikeBergy
Blah blah blah....
VTEC is the compromise honda made to make NA performance available in a streetable, smooth car. Not many people are in the market for a 195 hp ITR it all it has are the big lobes. If you were to drive on the ITR's vtec lobes, without any available smaller cam profile, the vibration and lopiness at idle would probably rattle your teeth out. Race cars rarely are at idle, so you don't need VTEC if you are just going to race the car, or don't mind the lopy idle. lots of big block muscle car owners have been lovin on the lopy idle for years.
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