all motor monster ls build

[beerbongskickass]

Your facts about the ls/vtec are pretty expensive. I'm sure with a little research and shopping around you could get it done for a lot less than that. It shouldn't be that hard to find a complete vtec head with IM and all the sensors. Stealthmode performance also sells ls/vtec oil line kits for $55. That's quite a bit off your suggested price right there. If you build the LS head yourself (not find an already built head) it will cost you more than just swapping a head on. Maybe I should make thread called "How to make your honda fast the cheap ass ghetto way" lol.

 

[ilikepie]

Im building my 94 integra ls now. I have a pnp ls head with oversized vavles, skunk2 intake mani, act clutch and flywheel, and arp bolts. Im putting it on in about 2 weeks. I let you know how she runs after this. Not enough money for turbo so thats why im just buildin my ls up a little. I have an aem cia and itr header with greddy evo exhaust all the way back too. So let you know in about 2 weeks what kind of hp i get. Have fun with you project!

 

[K2e2vin]

Originally posted by StyleTEG+May 19 2004, 05:23 PM-->

K2e2vin

@May 19 2004, 12:06 PM
actually VTEC can be used for a extra wide powerband; which is why many na autoX cars have it, as do f1 cars.

Actually no it isn't.

Maybe on some F1 cars, they use a form of variable valve timming that is used to increase the powerband.

But on all hondas to this point all the lower cam lobe is allows the car to idle comfortably , it has nothing to do with performance.

A powerband is rarely longer than 2,000rpm. After 1st gear, if you drop below your powerband (and vtec engagement is MUCH lower than the powerband) you either need to downshift or change your gearing.

VTEC is just for comfort, no for performance

i said can be used to increase powerband; not that it was its original purpose. a good example ive seen is on best motoring vol.4 where they had one of the cars(tuned vtec cars) with vtec disabled(like the toda vtec killer); they said it was powerless under 6800rpm, but the other vtec cars had no problems.

It may not be Honda's intended purpose to use vtec for racing; but then again how many civics out there do you see racing?

vtec doesnt rely on gearing; the main type of racing it works in is autoX; where the revs sometime drops to 3k. which is why an ls can keep up with a vtec car in a drag race, not in autoX.

 

[StyleTEG]

a good example ive seen is on best motoring vol.4 where they had one of the cars(tuned vtec cars) with vtec disabled(like the toda vtec killer); they said it was powerless under 6800rpm, but the other vtec cars had no problems.

When does vtec normally engage on a GSR (which was the model of the integra in said movie)? 4,400 rpm.

If you pay CLOSER attention, the reason they say it is gutless below 6,800 rpm is because of the huge primaries on the header the owner used. Not because of the vtec killer cams.

And what were the other engines being used that you claim don't have any problems? A very mildly modified B18C1, a heavily modified H22, and an S2k engine. Hmmm.. wonder why there power bands were not as peaky?

vtec doesnt rely on gearing; the main type of racing it works in is autoX; where the revs sometime drops to 3k. which is why an ls can keep up with a vtec car in a drag race, not in autoX.

No, and no. Vtec doesn't rely on gearing, POWERBAND does.

It doesn't work better in AutoX, if your revs drop to 3k its time to downshift. Further, ever seen a B18B vs B18C1 dyno compairison? Guess what makes more power in the lower rpms? B18B, in fact it makes more power till 6,000 rpm. Wait, thats with out VTEC? *GASP*

The point is if you drop out of your powerband (and out of the higher vtec lobes) your gearing is WRONG. VTEC is useless in racing situations.

 

[K2e2vin]

on stock cars the engage is different because as you stated before its for economy at low rpms.

shifting takes time; its better to accelerate through a exit and back straight.

the b18b does have better low end than the b18c; but thats where vtec can be used; if you were to take the b18b's cam profile and use them as a vtec low setting, and high rpm setting on the other profile; not only will you have that power to 6000rpm, you can also have to 9000rpm or whatever. autoX is about wide powerband; you want to do minimal shifting during the turns.

you are saying vtec is useless in racing situations? look at all the racing na hondas, what do they all have? VTEC. even some of the new ferraris use a form of variable valve timing, and you know ferraris are built to perform.

 

[StyleTEG]

Originally posted by K2e2vin@May 20 2004, 12:44 AM

on stock cars the engage is different because as you stated before its for economy at low rpms.

Nope. Its where it is because thats where the powerband will be the smoothest. Show me any dyno where a stock vtec engine gained power by changing the vtec engagement point lower or higher.

shifting takes time; its better to accelerate through a exit and back straight.

You downshift before the turn, not in it. It is done during the braking zone, and doesn't take any more time if done correctly.

you can also have to 9000rpm or whatever. autoX is about wide powerband; you want to do minimal shifting during the turns.

No, you wouldn't. Because the stroke of the B18B motor reduces the time that the pistons dwell at TDC. Because of this, the whole powerband is shifted lower. Regardless of having one set of higher cam profile its not going to make power to "9000rpm or whatever" with out some serious modification.

Want to know something else funny? I switched to cams that are slightly more aggressive than the ITR cams. I made more power low and high end. But by your definitions I should have lost power in the low end because I didn't have vtecs lower street profile to make low end power for me!

And again, you don't shift in a turn. You shift during the braking zone.

you are saying vtec is useless in racing situations? look at all the racing na hondas, what do they all have? VTEC. even some of the new ferraris use a form of variable valve timing, and you know ferraris are built to perform.

Real Time's ITR does not use vtec. I can site several others that also don't have vtec.

VTEC in its current form is useless in racing situations. Eventually there will get to a point where you can alter the cam profile enough times to expand the powerband. At this point in B, D, and K series engines it is just an idle/street lobe. Not a performance aspect.

 

[K2e2vin]

a stock b18c5 w/ some bolt-ons. a flat torque curve gives the best powerband; now you can see if the first hump(the low-rpm profile) was gone the motor will lose most of its mid-rpm power.

heres a tuned k20a w/ stock camshafts; as you can see it has a pretty flat curve. under normal driving you will usually shift at around 3000-3500rpm, which is not near the peak torque of the low cam profile in a race engine


yes you downshift before the turn, but if you enter at say 6500rpm; you will accelerate through the turn and near the end you may have to shift. whereas if you entered at 3500rpm, you will still be accelerating out of the turn while the other guy has to shift, but you guys have the same car and the car handles the same so turn speed is the same.

a b18b cant reach 9000rpm? well heres an ls/vtec at 8500rpm; 9000rpm very possible, but only necassary if you are making power there:

Realtimes ITR doesnt use vtec? which one? ive read about the dc2 and dc5 in SSC magazine; it said nothing about the dc2 being vtec-less and their review on the dc5 they talk about shifting and landing in vtec

 

[StyleTEG]

Not to be an ass, but its obvious you havn't AutoXed or Tracked much.

I have autoXed for going on three years now, and am in my second season of tracking.

You will go much slower by not downshifting and bogging, than making one upshift coming out of the corner. The idea that you are going to try and make a 1.8L have a powerband that lets you go with OUT downshifting is rediculess :roll:

A powerband is the flatest area of torque on the graph. Your first dyno shows a powerband from about 6 - 7.5k

If you fall below 6 in an ITR with bolt ons it bogs like CRAZY. Where does vtec engage on an ITR?

Trust me, I took my 404 LS out at gingerman raceway and could pull out of the turns with ease. In the ITR it felt slow and doggy, and the only way to get around this was to downshift into 2nd (which kept me in the powerband, and was MUCH faster) where I could stay in 3rd (same tranny). VTEC was of no help what so ever.

And that hump is from the AEM CAI, not vtec. You could throw a CAI on any non-vtec and get the same hump.

Don't know why you mentioned the K20 and normal driving. I think its pretty clear that I am saying in RACING SITUATIONS. Again that engines powerband is between 6,500 - 8,000 ish

a b18b cant reach 9000rpm? well heres an ls/vtec at 8500rpm; 9000rpm very possible, but only necassary if you are making power there:

Read my post again. I said

Regardless of having one set of higher cam profile its not going to make power to "9000rpm or whatever" with out some serious modification.

The real time DC2 was required to disable there lower vtec cam profiles due to rules/classing. They didn't run killer cams. I had a friend that attented several races and always chuckled at how the real time ITR would pull into the pits sounding like a muscle car.

And don't try and use SCC or one of the other importDEtuner magazines for any acurate information. They are good for girly pictures, thats about it.

Ask anyone who has designed transmissions for any racing vehicle (including bikes). You want the transmission when shifting at redline to land right at the begining of your powerband. Gearing is extremely important, shifting is part of the game. It is not quicker to bog through a whole turn and have a slow exit speed in a higher gear, than to downshift in the braking zone and upshift in the straight away.

I don't think any sort of performance driving can get any more basic than these ideas. Do we have to talk about what an apex or trailbraking is now?

 

[racintweek]

this guy knows what he wants and i bet its not you arguing
the only thing you guys are trying to help is your egos
calm down if you have some info to pass on... do it dont argue about it

 

[nismogod]

2 points real quick.

1st) Nissan messed with a vtec of sorts, not called vtec, but they did experiment with it before vtec, the name or the exact idea, was patented. they felt the trade off wasn't a valid one and stuck with building normal things.

2nd) good luck on the non-vtec. you could, for flow reasons, use a vtec head and disable vtec. and i dont think you have to buy toda vtec killer cams, and i think you could still get decent power. crower makes roller rockers <i think> that disable the vtec feature. you would technically have a vtec head, but not have vtec. and still have the superior flow characteristics of the vtec head. but that was just an option. again, good luck.

and if i was inaccurate, someone point it out please, but there is no need to be an asshat about it.

 

[phunky.buddha]

Nissan's current variable lift system is called "VVL" - Variable Valve Lift.

The old system was called Nissan Valve Timing Control System (NVCS), and I think it was first used in the 1986 VG30DEs and RB20DEs.

 

[nismogod]

o my, look at the mad man of knowledge! see, i like people that are openminded and well rounded. not this close minded crap you sometimes find. who-rah.

 

[phunky.buddha]