LS turbo vs. LS vtec turbo : pros and cons

[MikeBergy]

What are you looking to do with the car? unless you are just doing the vtec to say "I got vtec yo!" I'd say that the LS head will meet any power requirements you may need for the street. Numbers like 625 whp are excessive for a street car. You can easily make 350 whp on an LS turbo. If you have a good reason for making more than that, I'd like to hear it. I'd take the 3-500 that you would use to buy a vtec head, and use that money toward building the bottom end. If you have big pockets, do whatever you want. There really aren't any cons to going vtec, just costs more down the road. LS motors are a dime a dozen, and if you tear up a head, you can just go buy another one for like 100 bucks. vtec heads cost 3-4 times that much. Of course there are drawbacks to using an LS head: it's the price you pay for using a cheap head; but they work, and I say that you are fooling yourself if you think that the LS will not make enough power for you.

 

[CRXSI91]

Originally posted by beerbongskickass@Feb 28 2005, 06:48 PM
I wouldn't really consider 300-400 horsepower big numbers. I was thinking more like 500+ horsepower. There is no need to port the head and the stock GSR cams work great for boost, so save your money. I would just use the stock head. Some forged rods/pistons in your bottom end with a nice turbo kit and you will get 300-400 horsepower easy... and yes you will stomp vettes.

[post=467349]Quoted post[/post]​

well i understand that we all see 400 and 500 horsepower hondas a lot now..but just cus u see them on a video,and can give me links to some rare cases doesnt mean that 300 and 400 horsepower numbers isnt "big numbers" on a damn honda....the only time those numbers would look right,is on a s2000,a nsx, some other car MADE for performance..a crx was not made for perfomance..neither was your car.but you managed to get 230 to the wheels out of it..which would prolly mean your around 250 or higher.....300 and 400 horsepower are BIG numbers on a economical car.


now i can agree with you about not porting the head..but id like to squeeze as much power as i can out of the motor..so i think getting upgraded cams,would help...i understand,your car is turbod..and you probably have more experience than me with forced induction and tuning...but see,im not trying to branch off,do something different,and blow my motor 5 times before getting it right..im just trying to follow all the research ive been doing,and also use some guidance from you guys up here,to build a nice drag/street car...i mean at times..if i just said fuck it..and started getting ready for boost it would be nice..just keeping the ls head up there..and building it up..but then again,i think about the work i would have to do to get the head to flow...its the same amount or more than getting a vtec head...a lot of people are confusing me.

 

[CRXSI91]

Originally posted by pissedoffsol@Mar 1 2005, 12:42 PM
skunk2 S2 cams are sooo not turbo profile

[post=467618]Quoted post[/post]​

ok then ill get the turbo cams..easy fix.

 

[CRXSI91]

Originally posted by MikeBergy@Mar 2 2005, 05:44 AM
What are you looking to do with the car? unless you are just doing the vtec to say "I got vtec yo!" I'd say that the LS head will meet any power requirements you may need for the street. Numbers like 625 whp are excessive for a street car. You can easily make 350 whp on an LS turbo. If you have a good reason for making more than that, I'd like to hear it. I'd take the 3-500 that you would use to buy a vtec head, and use that money toward building the bottom end. If you have big pockets, do whatever you want. There really aren't any cons to going vtec, just costs more down the road. LS motors are a dime a dozen, and if you tear up a head, you can just go buy another one for like 100 bucks. vtec heads cost 3-4 times that much. Of course there are drawbacks to using an LS head: it's the price you pay for using a cheap head; but they work, and I say that you are fooling yourself if you think that the LS will not make enough power for you.

[post=468090]Quoted post[/post]​

ok,you just struck a very good point...its not that im scared that the LS head wont make enough power for me..its what people are saying about its flowing capabilities that scare me...they treat the head like its complete shit,and like it does no kind of good..but i mean,shit...when i first bought this car..the DAY I GOT THE DAMN CAR registered...i beat 3 cars...and none of them came close to me...i mean the head cant be THAT bad....i even raced someone from a 40,had LATE ass reaction time..he jumped me by a car and a half,and i still walked him down,and ate him...so its like..i know the ls head doesnt suck...but for what im trying to do..which is break into 300 whp,and make the car streetable..i just need to know that im going the right route..sure..it would be nice to say "i got vtec yO" and it would be nice to put my car on the dyno in NA form,before i do FI,just to see how much power i could get out of a GSR/ls setup,with all bolt-ons..but i guess im just ready for boost.

i get 5 people saying "ls vtec turbo"..then i get two people saying "ls turbo"...so its hard not to be swayed a certain way..everyone has valuable points..its just that i know once i start going a certain way,theres no point in turning back.

 

[MikeBergy]

Originally posted by CRXSI91+Mar 2 2005, 07:26 AM-->

MikeBergy

@Mar 2 2005, 05:44 AM
What are you looking to do with the car? unless you are just doing the vtec to say "I got vtec yo!" I'd say that the LS head will meet any power requirements you may need for the street. Numbers like 625 whp are excessive for a street car. You can easily make 350 whp on an LS turbo. If you have a good reason for making more than that, I'd like to hear it. I'd take the 3-500 that you would use to buy a vtec head, and use that money toward building the bottom end. If you have big pockets, do whatever you want. There really aren't any cons to going vtec, just costs more down the road. LS motors are a dime a dozen, and if you tear up a head, you can just go buy another one for like 100 bucks. vtec heads cost 3-4 times that much. Of course there are drawbacks to using an LS head: it's the price you pay for using a cheap head; but they work, and I say that you are fooling yourself if you think that the LS will not make enough power for you.

[post=468090]Quoted post[/post]​

ok,you just struck a very good point...its not that im scared that the LS head wont make enough power for me..its what people are saying about its flowing capabilities that scare me...they treat the head like its complete shit,and like it does no kind of good..but i mean,shit...when i first bought this car..the DAY I GOT THE DAMN CAR registered...i beat 3 cars...and none of them came close to me...i mean the head cant be THAT bad....i even raced someone from a 40,had LATE ass reaction time..he jumped me by a car and a half,and i still walked him down,and ate him...so its like..i know the ls head doesnt suck...but for what im trying to do..which is break into 300 whp,and make the car streetable..i just need to know that im going the right route..sure..it would be nice to say "i got vtec yO" and it would be nice to put my car on the dyno in NA form,before i do FI,just to see how much power i could get out of a GSR/ls setup,with all bolt-ons..but i guess im just ready for boost.

i get 5 people saying "ls vtec turbo"..then i get two people saying "ls turbo"...so its hard not to be swayed a certain way..everyone has valuable points..its just that i know once i start going a certain way,theres no point in turning back.

[post=468148]Quoted post[/post]​

Don't let me steer you away from going vtec if that is what you want. I'm not saying it is a bad route to take, just a more expensive one. If you are patient, and willing to do your own work on the head, as I did, you can get the ls head to flow well, and all it costs you is your time. You could buy 4 LS heads for the price of a gsr head, and then you could port all of them differently to see how the flow reacts to different shapes. If one doesn't flow how you want it, just get another one, no big deal. I have a spare just chilling in my garage waiting for me to play with it. I also have a spare pr3 head just chilling. I too have plans to implement vtec, but just not until I have the money to do it up right - I bide my time. If you look into it, it will cost you more to build a vtec engine; parts cost more, tuning takes a bit longer, and when it breaks, (which it will, count on it), it will cost more to replace. Do what you can afford, that's my point. And like I said, vtec is nice, but not necessary to reach your goals. Go visit G2IC, there are quite a few people running ls turbos. If you are wanting to rev high, LS head limits are around 8K with a good valvetrain setup; not as high as the limits on the vtec head (the rocker assy. limits the reliability of the ls head), but it should meet your needs adequately. But do what you want, you have to choose between two good setups - it's a hard call which in the end will be dictated by the size of your wallet. I am trying to get around 200whp on a budget of around 2k; so far I've spent around 1200 on goodies; I still have to buy the exhaust system, injectors, and tuning time. keeping my fingers crossed

 

[beerbongskickass]

I just don't think it would be worth it to do anything to your head for your power goals. I gave you those links to show you with the right setup you can make the stock head work really well. A nice set of forged rods/pistons with a stock GSR head should be all you need. Aftermarket cams, springs, retainers, and valves will be very expensive... and if you just want a little extra power, turn the boost up. Here are a couple more articles you might want to read.

http://www.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=1623
http://www.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=1744

 

[CRXSI91]

ok,u made your point,i understand now...uppin.

 

[CRXSI91]

ok,another question..what about a b16 head...its cheaper,and i could get it a lot faster...even though i really dont like b16's,its a little bit better than a stock ls head.

 

[CRXSI91]

Originally posted by beerbongskickass@Mar 2 2005, 06:24 PM
I just don't think it would be worth it to do anything to your head for your power goals. I gave you those links to show you with the right setup you can make the stock head work really well. A nice set of forged rods/pistons with a stock GSR head should be all you need. Aftermarket cams, springs, retainers, and valves will be very expensive... and if you just want a little extra power, turn the boost up. Here are a couple more articles you might want to read.

http://www.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=1623
http://www.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=1744

[post=468457]Quoted post[/post]​

ohh yea i forgot..what about a block guard...or resleeving the block..i mean i want to run a normal sized turbo,and boost a normal amount...i dont want a t67 or some crazy shit and be boosting like 8 psi,and making 300 hp...so are forged pistons and rods going to just be "enough" ??

 

[beerbongskickass]

Just forged rods/pistons will be fine. There is no need for a block guard or sleeves.

 

[CRXSI91]

Originally posted by beerbongskickass@Mar 2 2005, 09:43 PM
Just forged rods/pistons will be fine. There is no need for a block guard or sleeves.

[post=468565]Quoted post[/post]​

i also always wondered..how do people go about picking pistons..how do they just "know" what compression they want to run?? i mean from what i see,most people run 9:1...but some people crank the boost way up and run like 8 or some shit...

 

[adnoh]

Originally posted by CRXSI91@Mar 2 2005, 08:19 PM
ok,another question..what about a b16 head...its cheaper,and i could get it a lot faster...even though i really dont like b16's,its a little bit better than a stock ls head.

[post=468511]Quoted post[/post]​

A B16A head flows better than a GSR head, so that should have been your top choice anyways. Keep in mind, the head on a B18C Spec R is just a ported head from a B16A, not a GSR.

B16A Head>GSR Head

Also, way less money. And not to mention you could use a first generation B16 head as well....so even less money.

And bro...there's no reason not to like the B16A engine....drop one in a hatch and a GSR in another and you will be hard pressed to tell which car is which. I should know, I've had both

 

[CRXSI91]

Originally posted by adnoh+Mar 3 2005, 09:11 AM-->

CRXSI91

@Mar 2 2005, 08:19 PM
ok,another question..what about a b16 head...its cheaper,and i could get it a lot faster...even though i really dont like b16's,its a little bit better than a stock ls head.

[post=468511]Quoted post[/post]​

A B16A head flows better than a GSR head, so that should have been your top choice anyways. Keep in mind, the head on a B18C Spec R is just a ported head from a B16A, not a GSR.

B16A Head>GSR Head

Also, way less money. And not to mention you could use a first generation B16 head as well....so even less money.

And bro...there's no reason not to like the B16A engine....drop one in a hatch and a GSR in another and you will be hard pressed to tell which car is which. I should know, I've had both

[post=468682]Quoted post[/post]​

well cant argue with you there..but question is..why do people say gsr cams are better for turbo???....i mean the thing with a gsr and b16 head is..when u go to turbo..once u put down the numbers..its not gonna matter which head you have..big numbers is big numbers...thats how i feel..i feel that if my car is gonna be turbo...as long as i have a b16 or b18 vtec head...that when i go to turbo,its not gonna matter which one i had in the end,because the turbo and the head are gonna end up working together anyway..i mean i could understand if i was going NA..cus the head really matters then...but going with forced induction,as long as the head flows good,then my setup should run smooth (with fuel,ignition,and tuning of course)...


so the question being..why does the b16 head flow better than a gsr?? someone else told me that the gsr head has better combustion,and the cams are better for FI....so correct him if hes wrong.

 

[adnoh]

[post=468682]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]


well cant argue with you there..but question is..why do people say gsr cams are better for turbo???....i mean the thing with a gsr and b16 head is..when u go to turbo..once u put down the numbers..its not gonna matter which head you have..big numbers is big numbers...thats how i feel..i feel that if my car is gonna be turbo...as long as i have a b16 or b18 vtec head...that when i go to turbo,its not gonna matter which one i had in the end,because the turbo and the head are gonna end up working together anyway..i mean i could understand if i was going NA..cus the head really matters then...but going with forced induction,as long as the head flows good,then my setup should run smooth (with fuel,ignition,and tuning of course)...


so the question being..why does the b16 head flow better than a gsr?? someone else told me that the gsr head has better combustion,and the cams are better for FI....so correct him if hes wrong.

[post=468685]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]


Well, to completely honest with you bro, the diffrence between the flow characteristics of the GSR and SiR heads are minimal....maybe almost non-existant. But IMO, spending more hard earned $ on a GSR head for your application just doesn't make any sence. You can pick up an SiR head for about half the price and have the exact same performance (maybe even better in some cases) than the GSR. Here is a link of some pics of GSR, SiR, And Type R heads so you can see the subtle diffrences between them.
Heads

In terms of cams, for your setup, the GSR cams will work perfectly fine. There are plenty of 500hp+ cars running stock GSR cams. They are better for turbo applications for many reasons including their power curve being geared more towards low and mid-range power...unlike SiR cams which are designed for High-revs. If you can make your turbo more efficient at a lower RPM, then the better off you'll be.

So for you, an ideal setup would be a B16A head with GSR cams. All Honda, easy on the wallet.

R

 

[beerbongskickass]

Originally posted by CRXSI91@Mar 3 2005, 07:30 AM
i also always wondered..how do people go about picking pistons..how do they just "know" what compression they want to run?? i mean from what i see,most people run 9:1...but some people crank the boost way up and run like 8 or some shit...

[post=468667]Quoted post[/post]​

Here is a good thread about low and high compression...

http://www.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=19

 

[CRXSI91]

that was a real good article..i understand what compression i want to run now...

but to adnoh..i guess your right..so i guess im lookin for a b16 head now

 

[MikeBergy]

The gsr head has significant improvements in flow over the b16 head. The ports are reworked extensively to allow the air to flow more straight into and out of the chamber. Whoever said that a b16 head was a better head needs to go back and examine the port shapes and combustion chambers for the two heads. The only thing you have to work around with the gsr head is the IM. It's almost required that you get an aftermarket one. But this matters mostly for NA applications, and for your case, the bottlenecking at the intake is your major concern. So either vtec head will suit you. Regarding compression, it is ultimately the dynamic compression of the motor that you want to be worried about. A high static CR is going to yield you higher efficiency and better responsiveness, but it will also make your engine more sensitive to small changes in tuning, i.e. ignition and fuel, egt's, etc. and so must be tuned to a higher accuracy, or the engine will not run properly. Running a lower static CR will allow you to have a "sloppier" tune, and so is more forgiving. Make sure you have a damn good tuner who knows what he is doing if you are going to run higher compression pistons.

 

[adnoh]

Originally posted by MikeBergy@Mar 4 2005, 05:45 AM
The gsr head has significant improvements in flow over the b16 head. The ports are reworked extensively to allow the air to flow more straight into and out of the chamber. Whoever said that a b16 head was a better head needs to go back and examine the port shapes and combustion chambers for the two heads. The only thing you have to work around with the gsr head is the IM. It's almost required that you get an aftermarket one. But this matters mostly for NA applications, and for your case, the bottlenecking at the intake is your major concern. So either vtec head will suit you.

[post=469116]Quoted post[/post]​

I know dude....I corrected myself on that one. But seriously, the flow characteristics of both heads are so minimal that it's barely noticible anyways. So IMO, if I can hit the same goals having spent half the $$$, then I'll go that way. Maybe I'm just blind, but after examining both heads, the ports look almost identical except for the Intake port which looks a tad restrictive on the GSR...just like you said. But true, for an FI application, either head will be ok. And with work, both heads can accomplish the same goals.

R

 

[posol]

gsr has a little more mid range
b16 has a little more above 7000 rpms

stock for stock

they equal out.

 

[MikeBergy]

Originally posted by adnoh+Mar 4 2005, 08:19 AM-->

MikeBergy

@Mar 4 2005, 05:45 AM
The gsr head has significant improvements in flow over the b16 head. The ports are reworked extensively to allow the air to flow more straight into and out of the chamber. Whoever said that a b16 head was a better head needs to go back and examine the port shapes and combustion chambers for the two heads. The only thing you have to work around with the gsr head is the IM. It's almost required that you get an aftermarket one. But this matters mostly for NA applications, and for your case, the bottlenecking at the intake is your major concern. So either vtec head will suit you.

[post=469116]Quoted post[/post]​

I know dude....I corrected myself on that one. But seriously, the flow characteristics of both heads are so minimal that it's barely noticible anyways. So IMO, if I can hit the same goals having spent half the $$$, then I'll go that way. Maybe I'm just blind, but after examining both heads, the ports look almost identical except for the Intake port which looks a tad restrictive on the GSR...just like you said. But true, for an FI application, either head will be ok. And with work, both heads can accomplish the same goals.

R

[post=469162]Quoted post[/post]​

I would definitely spend less dough on a b16a head if I could yield the same performance. We're on the same page, just thought I'd chime in. Didn't see that you corrected yourself, my bad.

As for the ports the gsr ports have a WAY straighter shot into the chamber. Less bends = greater pressure recovery = less flow loss throught the head.

Brian - yeah, stock for stock, the gsr is built for midrange more so than for up top, and for the b16a vice versa (b16a has slightly smaller ports, so the dynamic pressure is higher up top on a b16a than a gsr). But the gsr head is a much better head to start out with if you plan on playing with the ports somewhere down the line, hence why it costs more to get one. I would think midrange would be where you would want your peak power anyway with a turbo setup, but I guess that is just one of a jillion ways to make power.