Solar Panel Installation on roof

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totalburnout said:
There's no free money in this world.

Too good to be true because in reality, you're not saving anything. You're spending. As a consumer, you just have a short time horizon with your checkbook. As a business, they have a long time horizon and are willing to wait a few years until this becomes profitable for them and unprofitable for you.
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i don't really get your point.....

i pay for electricity regardless of if i had solar or not...if the solar paid for 80% of my electricity and it cost me nothing to get the solar....example...

let's say my average usage is 750KWH and i pay the electric company what ever amount that is..if solar covers 70% of that then that would leave me with 225KWH to pay to the Solar company and 525 KWH were free. Solar companies lock in whatever rate they charge for the 20 years. Let's say it some ridiculous # like 15 cents per KWH(i pay 7.5 currently) that leaves me with a $34 bill that month.

i would be saving money...you can't really argue that....it's un-disputable.

And just saw articles that CT is getting a 20% electricity increase for 2014....how nice.

http://www.energycentral.com/news/en/30971731/Electricity-Prices-To-Jump-Throughout-Region-Due-To-Natural-Gas-Concerns
 
How can you not see my point?

If you compare your cost over 20 years with the solar power vs your cost over 20 years without the solar power - the solar power will ultimately cost you just as much, if not more.

Again, no free lunch. If the panel company wasn't making money by doing this, they wouldn't be doing it. They do subsidize some of their cost by reselling the energy you're generating, to other consumers and not compensating you. The money is coming from you, whether or not you 'feel' the loss. You have the opportunity cost of not being able to generate a profit from the panels by reselling the energy - like you could if you bought the panels yourself.

So in the end, it's all just slight of hand and moving around the money. You're looking at it as 'well there's no money out of my pocket so this isn't costing me anything." Ill give you an outrageous example that will apply the same logic that youre using right now. That's the same as saying if someone steals from you and you didn't see the theft, there wasn't a cost - because you didn't SEE the theft happen.

Econ 101 - there's no free lunch.
 
totalburnout said:
How can you not see my point?

If you compare your cost over 20 years with the solar power vs your cost over 20 years without the solar power - the solar power will ultimately cost you just as much, if not more.

Again, no free lunch. If the panel company wasn't making money by doing this, they wouldn't be doing it. They do subsidize some of their cost by reselling the energy you're generating, to other consumers and not compensating you. The money is coming from you, whether or not you 'feel' the loss. You have the opportunity cost of not being able to generate a profit from the panels by reselling the energy - like you could if you bought the panels yourself.

So in the end, it's all just slight of hand and moving around the money. You're looking at it as 'well there's no money out of my pocket so this isn't costing me anything." Ill give you an outrageous example that will apply the same logic that youre using right now. That's the same as saying if someone steals from you and you didn't see the theft, there wasn't a cost - because you didn't SEE the theft happen.

Econ 101 - there's no free lunch.
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because you are not making the right point....the point is...it would be saving me money and it there is no out of pocket cost to me....i can care less about the solar company making money..what the fuck is the difference if the solar company makes money or the electric company makes money...someone is getting my money regardless....only the solar company will get a much less amount from me in exchange for putting solar panels on my roof...

how in gods name do you not see that? are you that dense? my point is... it's a savings a money to me....your point is ...nothing is free which is totally unrelated to the point i am making...which it, i t would cost me nothing to save 70-90% of my bill....there is no EXTRA cost..i am already paying an electric bill
 
Believe me, you're missing the point.

You'd save more, in the long run, if you bought the panels.

I'm sort of good with money. You should shut up for once and take note.
 
totalburnout said:
Believe me, you're missing the point.

You'd save more, in the long run, if you bought the panels.

I'm sort of good with money. You should shut up for once and take note.
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enlighten me...I'm curious how getting free panels and paying a ridiculous low electricity cost will cost me more money in the long run

go into detail about the equipment I will need to purchase to install the panels, the costs of the permits from the town/state, the cost and panels and the costs of misc. items..and the 20 year cost of routine maint.

go...
 
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There are obviously infinite possibilities of what your net cost will be over X amount of years, which will be impossible to calculate an exact figure. ...and without seeing their actual contract, your current energy usage, etc. its all conjecture. With that said, based on past experiences and common sense, we can all confidently tell you that you'll wind up losing in the long run.

We've went over the general gist of what is happening ad naseum in this thread - but you've already presented a new variable - energy costs increasing in your neck of the woods. What do you think the trend will be over time? Increased energy costs. What do you think will happen to the cost of solar panels over time? Yup - like any technology, the cost of the panels are going to decrease over time and their efficiency will increase.

I'll give you a real life example of what is happening with these panels...
Business with a 16,000sq ft warehouse purchases solar panels with government subsidies in 2009. Based on the going rate of energy in 2009, the characteristics of the building, etc, the projected return would have the panels paid off in 5 years. What actually happened... So many people opted to install the panels based on the subsidies that were given, that they drove the resale rate of the energy into the ground. Actual pay off/return on investment was then projected at 15 years. Now energy rates have changed yet again and pay off has moved back to approximately 7 years.

You could say that this example proves that you'd lose money if you bought the panels yourself - but it simply proves that this is all a crap shoot that has too many variables attached to it. You say that resale would increase - but in reality, its like anything else - the house is worth whatever a buyer is willing to pay. I'd argue unless you find a very specific buyer that your resale will take a significant hit. Why do I argue that? Because personally I wouldn't pay for the panels - just like I wouldn't pay for mods to a car (nor would my fiance want that house, or my mother, or a number of other people that I've talked to... There's one person in my circle of friends that I can point to, that would see value in the panels, but if they weren't the uber best most efficient panels for the time, he wouldn't want to touch it either.)

You'd be better to lock in the lowest rate possible from an energy reseller and take your savings immediately and invest them. If you opt to go with the panels, you're stuck.
 
personally, i wouldnt do it for various reasons.

but, the main thing im wondering: how much of a fine do you have to pay if you break the contract, ie: sell the house? or realize in 5 years that you are locked in a contract, and they just tripled the rates?
surely the next homebuyer isnt going to want to be stuck with that company? they are going to see the panels and possibly think: awesome, we get to make our own power and save money!
but, then they realize that thats only if they continue your contract (if thats allowed) and they may see the value diminish.
so, then you have to look into breaking the contract, and there goes every penny, and then some, of what you saved.

or, they may tell you how awesome their customer service and repair response is, but how is it really? what if one of the panels or all of them dont put out properly, or dont function at all. now you are paying their higher rates and using the same amount of power. and their 24 (just tossing a number here) hour response time is actually 24 hours, for them to respond and evaluate, but might take a month or two to actually repair, all while you pay more money for power.

there are a lot of real world scenarios (dif from what total is pointing out) that i would be hesitant about. im sure most of it is listed in the small fine print of the contract that nobody ever bothers to read.
 
invisibledemon said:
personally, i wouldnt do it for various reasons.

but, the main thing im wondering: how much of a fine do you have to pay if you break the contract, ie: sell the house? or realize in 5 years that you are locked in a contract, and they just tripled the rates?
surely the next homebuyer isnt going to want to be stuck with that company? they are going to see the panels and possibly think: awesome, we get to make our own power and save money!
but, then they realize that thats only if they continue your contract (if thats allowed) and they may see the value diminish.
so, then you have to look into breaking the contract, and there goes every penny, and then some, of what you saved.

or, they may tell you how awesome their customer service and repair response is, but how is it really? what if one of the panels or all of them dont put out properly, or dont function at all. now you are paying their higher rates and using the same amount of power. and their 24 (just tossing a number here) hour response time is actually 24 hours, for them to respond and evaluate, but might take a month or two to actually repair, all while you pay more money for power.

there are a lot of real world scenarios (dif from what total is pointing out) that i would be hesitant about. im sure most of it is listed in the small fine print of the contract that nobody ever bothers to read.
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well the electricity rate is locked for 20 years so they can't triple it in 5 years....repairs are just like anything else....if your engine blows up in the first month you buy a brand new car, it doesn't get fixed that same day. it most likely takes weeks maybe even months. that's just stuff you have to deal with. the solar contract transfers to the new owners as part of the sale of the house....after the house is sold...i could care less what happens...

i'm definitely not doing purely based on the eye soar factor.
 
i'm waiting for these:
Solar-Roof-Tiles.jpg
looks like a cali house roof
 
That's interesting.

Would probably give you a constant power output throughout the day being shaped like that, though it'll never have maximum output like a flat panel. Versus the tapering up and down with a fixed flat panel.
 
I just can't believe there is no Micro or Nano techonology in this field you know?

A small little panel that can absorb an incredible amount of energy istalled on a pole in your backyard somewhere..
 
corvetteguy78 said:
I just can't believe there is no Micro or Nano techonology in this field you know?

A small little panel that can absorb an incredible amount of energy istalled on a pole in your backyard somewhere..
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Well there's only so much energy in a photon, you need to collect a lot of them to power all of our inefficient and energy-hungry technology.

Commercial solar panels are at around 6-12% efficiency right now, the new stuff in the lab is about 31%. Let's say you get panels covering a whole roof that are 10% efficient... In a perfect world with super advanced technology, 100% efficient panels can only ever get 10 times smaller than the 10% panels while providing the same amount of energy. There's just not any more energy in the light to give.

So we'd really need to improve the efficiency of the things that use the power before we can realistically use a little pole panel. :)
 
DarkHand said:
Well there's only so much energy in a photon, you need to collect a lot of them to power all of our inefficient and solar energy-hungry technology.

Commercial solar panels are at around 6-12% efficiency right now, the new stuff in the lab is about 31%. Let's say you get panels covering a whole roof that are 10% efficient... In a perfect world with super advanced technology, 100% efficient panels can only ever get 10 times smaller than the 10% panels while providing the same amount of energy. There's just not any more energy in the light to give.

So we'd really need to improve the efficiency of the things that use the power before we can realistically use a little pole panel. :)
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I am still confused to buy these panels or not.. There is mixed opinion and I am not able to make my mind..
 
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So, one of the people in my father's neighborhood put in solar panels in 2008. He's also the President of the HOA, so it was a non-issue for him to get approval.

He just had his roof re-done, and he didn't get the company to disconnect and reconnect them, because it was going to cost him $1k for removal, and $1500 for reinstallation, when he only paid $9k for the panel setup (augments his power, no storage capability). So he had the roofers do it. Turns out, the solar panel company decided to stop by the same day the roof was going on, and now he has a lien to deal with, because he was "leasing" the panels. Apparently the inverter has a cellular modem in it and communicated back to the company that something was seriously wrong.

Personally, I'm piecing together my own system, with WHOLLY OWNED components. It's going to go into a battery bank, and I'll run some parts of the house entirely from battery. Right now I'm running my radios from the battery bank I have with no plans to expand it until I move into a better house.
 
If he needed a roof that quick, he should've done the roof before installing the panels.

I agree though, going wholy owned is the way to go. Grid-tie is cheaper and easier and can actually earn you money by selling back to the PC, but non-tie is where it's at because it actually works when the grid is down, but it's expensive and battery tech is the lacking element here. You'll need a large bank with short 5 year lifespans means you'll have a roating cost of a couple hundred a month just in battery costs.... which is more than your power bill probably is.
 
I think something happened to his roof, not sure what it was. Everyone in this HOA hides shit they do, because they don't want to admit that they're doing anything that might increase the value of their house, and indicate that they're considering selling. Because if they're considering selling, the HOA will "inspect" their house, and issue citations.

I've put about $750 into my system. I check the batteries once a month, the same day I test the generator. I've yet to have to do anything but add a little distilled water. I'm going on 8 months. The replacement cost of each battery is $120.
 
Flooded lead acid in a container vented to the outside. I built a fire-resistant box that positively pressurizes the container through a check valve with inside-air, and forces it outside. This gives me some temperature control of the batteries.
 
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